Dr. Hill is one of the top peak performance coaches in the country. He holds a Ph.D. in Cognitive Neuroscience from UCLA’s Department of Psychology and continues to do research on attention and cognition. Research methodology includes EEG, QEEG, and ERP. He has been practicing neurofeedback since 2003. In addition to founding Peak Brain Institute, Dr. Hill is the host of the Head First Podcast with Dr. Hill and lectures at UCLA, teaching courses in psychology, neuroscience, and gerontology.

Show Highlights:

– Learn how you can use neurofeedback to optimize brain function
– Can neurofeedback treat ADHD?
– How does Neurofeedback work?
– Discover the science behind brain mapping and how it can identify areas of the brain that need attention.
– How long do the benefits of neurofeedback last?
– Is it possible to train your brain for higher achievement?
– What does AI mean for the future of neurofeedback?
– How to be the best version of yourself

Speaker 1 0:00
Welcome to another fun new episode of The Life optimized Podcast. I’m Dr. Neil Pavin where we speak about optimizing your health, life, business and athletic pursuits. And I’m excited for this really new fun episode with Dr. Andrew Hill of the peak Brain Institute who I’ve had the pleasure of participating at his Institute here in Manhattan and I learned a lot he was like, the psychic mind reader literally and figuratively. So we’re gonna learn a lot more today about you e Gs, and neurofeedback, how you can do it in the office or do it remotely and how you can use it from everything from health optimization and optimizing performance. So unfortunately, if you’re dealing with illnesses like lawn COVID, or other issues as well, so thank you, Dr. Hill for coming on the podcast with us introduce yourself. Thanks,

Speaker 2 0:44
Dr. Pavan. Nice to be here. Thanks for having me. I guess I’m just your friendly neighborhood brain training personal trainer who happens to be a neuroscientist, essentially, and then moved into the entrepreneurial space to share you know this this Neurofeedback stuff, this brain training stuff, I’ve sort of platform a soapbox about not being overwhelmed by your brain, but like digging in and understanding it and starting to demystify some of the big features of stress, attention sleep, because they’re actually things that are physiologically based that we often give sort of big giant scary labels to and diagnoses to. But if you understand how they work, you can start taking control of them and be as frustrated as you need but it’s kind of hard to be ashamed when you understand stuff and how it works. So that’s that’s the role I serve as as a brain coach for folks and help them build transform transformation using tools like neurofeedback.

Speaker 1 1:35
Now, you explained to me before we started here that you instead of going to the research realm, you went into this round the entrepreneurial realm, was there some personal motivation, or is some some thing that was missing in the landscape that motivated you to go this route?

Speaker 2 1:48
It’s probably both I worked in Health and Human Services for a while before going back to grad school. And I went in to a cognitive neuroscience Ph. D program, which is sort of that mind brain intersection study a lot of how the human resources, the human features and brain resources of executive function, sleep stress are organized in the brain and how the different systems are interconnected and how they operate, how to test them. And the tool I was using all all scientists have tools of analysis and things that frame the questions they asked the tools that I was using were EEG or brainwaves, because I went back to grad school to study Neurofeedback at, I think I was 35 when I started grad school, so you know, a little a little bit older than the average person starting a PhD. in the US. The reason I went back to grad school is because what I was seeing in the clinical environments for over a decade, I’d worked in clinical, pretty acute environments, inpatient psychiatric block facilities, I ran group homes for folks with multiple developmental disabilities and without language and often with altered communication and vision and hearing, and others other features too. So really quite profound human to edge cases of brains both developmentally and then in an acute psychiatric work, I worked in addiction so I had a huge breadth of Human Services experiences in places that humans suffer. And I got injured working in a psychiatric hospital from doing too many restraints back to back and understaffed Hospital in before 2000 Like in the late 90s, or something. And healthcare was falling apart and insurance companies were pulling out of big hospital systems and I couldn’t go do the work. I’ve been doing the with people. So I went to high tech for a while. And then the tech bubble corrected around 2000. And I went back into human services looking for something because I missed working with people, I found a center that could use all of my experience with developmental stuff, autism, ADHD, etc. That did Neurofeedback in Providence, Rhode Island. And after working there for several weeks, I started to get pretty excited because I was seeing people make changes. And these were complaints that I had been working with for years. And when things are pretty extreme, you know, someone’s got very extreme autism or you know, PDD NOS, where they’re flapping and stimming and screaming and having seizures, and there’s very little language production and very little language reception, you know, pretty extreme stuff. I’m seeing people like this change. And I had worked with environment, you know, people with extreme brain stuff for years, I was like, Well, wait a minute. This is this is interesting. This is very attention getting and it wasn’t just changed, like ADHD, folks, we’re getting a couple of standard deviations on tests of attention of improvement and a few months, like one person after the next so this kind of got my attention again, and I had to figure out how we were what we were doing because then more than 20 years ago still now. Neurofeedback is a bit of an art, you know, it’s very akin to personal training in that yes, you have data and assessments and you can dig into actual real numbers of things. But you also have to understand the whole person the system, and brains are weirder than bodies. So you get a lot more variability and a lot more unusual stuff is normal and typical even though it’s on you visual. So when you move into the landscape of brain at least 2025 years ago, everyone doing it was kind of a guru in their space. So you were an autism specialist or an eating disorder specialist or a concussion specialist or migraine etc. And this stuff this Neurofeedback stuff had efficacy and all these landscapes of suffering in a way that I just did not think was possible after working for years in traditional environments. So I eventually went and got a PhD to study this stuff to study Neurofeedback and I worked in as Idelle lab at UCLA, which is a doctor’s idler on Seidel was a great lad orality neuroscientist when he was a grad student. I think he worked for Sperry and Bowgun doing some of the split brain research initially at Caltech and stuff way back in the day on the split brain epilepsy research in the 70s and 80s. And things but I did lat orality research at UCLA looking left or right hemisphere organization and then brought in the neurofeedback stuff and I think I may have done the first double blind placebo controlled study on neurofeedback, my dissertation work a part of it anyway, and I did that work in 2010. So the field of Neurofeedback has been around since at least the mid 60s. And I may have been the first double blind placebo controlled study demonstrating, you know, the sort of blind impact or the actual brain’s response to Neurofeedback without the sort of human judgment piece of it being involved. And from that point, I just, I think you’ll appreciate this I ended up working for oh, and it’d be about 12 years at UCLA teaching, a lot of what I taught was gerontology, and peak brain aging. And I bet you would agree that the field of Jarrow, the field of aging medicine is pretty tightly aligned with the field of peak performance biohacking. And a lot of the stuff we use we used to use for only aging meds are used these days by people trying to get an edge or squeeze out performance or recover faster. Things like the choline drugs instead of choline, and things used to only be geriatric medicine. Now they’re used by students and executives and things. So that was my landscape. It’s a long winded story, my my journey from working in health and human services through a PhD. And then as I exited the Ph D, I started a company that had a mixed addiction and non addiction focus, you know, two separate sort of brandings. And then after a few years, the non addiction side just outgrew the addiction focused side pretty aggressively. So we split off into peak brain in 2015, at this point, so we’ve been around for a while, we have offices in New York and St. Louis and LA and Orange County, as well as some services popping up now in London in Stockholm. So people can work with our coaches and get their brains mapped and dig in and learn how they work and push them around.

Speaker 1 7:32
So neurofeedback is going international at this point, which is great, because it’s like you mentioned it it’s has really good utility both in health and wellness and also unfortunately patient with chronic. And so let’s enter some of the questions that I always get when I mentioned this stuff to patients when they look at me like I’ve three heads unless they see the funny picture with me, we’re in the red cap, which we’ll talk about in a couple minutes here. So to get all the information that you need to get somebody start on neurofeedback, you need to start measuring it getting some information data somehow and that’s usually done through a cue EEG. So explain to people this is what a cue EEG is, it’s similar to what people hear about in the hospital, if you’re getting a quote on getting an EEG done for seizures, where the difference where the similarities and we’ll go from there,

Speaker 2 8:13
the field of EEG as a version of neuro imaging, sort of our way of measuring the brain has been around for a long time. One of the first things we did before damaging was look at the brains electricity. And the EEG is that we do today for most purposes are very similar to the EEG s that have been done for 100 years because they started off really looking at things like sleep stages. And so the particular grid of electrodes you put in their head and where they are and what other whatever else you measure became a standard. And you know, the brain makes electricity, electricity moves around and mixes and recombine. So it’s hard to measure signals at a location. So in doing EEG, you have to always kind of match your measurement scheme on the head to the measurement scheme of whatever it is you’re you’re comparing it against some other research or in this case, the Q and quantitative EEG means you’re doing a full head cap of electrodes. In this case, we use 19 standard electrodes plus ear clips. And that’s the same 19 plus years you might wear for a sleep study, or for epilepsy, long term monitoring. But in those cases, you’re wearing these things for hours and hours and hours, you know, overnight or for a few days. In the case of a brain map or a cue EEG, you may agree it’s pretty straightforward. You sit down, put a cap on squirt it fill a gel, kind of messy but doesn’t hurt. Then we have you sit still for about 10 minutes with your eyes closed and 10 minutes with your eyes open. And that is the assessment of your brain sort of resting fingerprint or resting resources. And we also do an executive function test and attention test alongside it. That’s a good practice from a neuro psych perspective. I’m a cognitive neuroscience person so I always must put physiology and performance in contrast to outline things that’s a talent you know that that’s my tool set. But the brain mapping or the QE g takes that resting EEG the eyes closed chunk and the eyes open chunk. And after flipping out coughs and wheezing and movement and stuff like that you have several minutes of clean data, you average those amounts, speeds and connectivity patterns of different brainwaves throughout the brain take an average across time. And then I would compare your averages on both the brain mapping information, the the EEG recordings, and the performance test, to an age map sample, and see how weird you are, essentially, but good job be weird. As far as the brain maps are concerned, we don’t expect you to be average. And we don’t use a brain map to train your brain towards average, we use a yardstick to hold up against you to see what sticks out and see what’s interesting and unusual because people are unusual. And the degree to which things are unusual does not track how much suffering there is or if something’s even in the way at all. But a lot of the stuff we call illness or psychiatric stuff, or cognitive or emotional suffering, an awful lot of it isn’t really a disease process. It’s really a dysregulation of an existing resource that has different modes or ranges that can move through and it kind of gets stuck gets dysregulated in one mode, kind of like a muscle can spasm or cramp up and it’s very strong anxiety is the best example of this, you’ve got circuits all over the place that do specific things for information processing, evaluation, switching your focus around at the intersection of like stress and attention to big clusters called the cingulate and the front and back, switch your internal environment, which are thinking about the front, and the external focus and the orientation and the evaluation to the outside world. In the back. So the front of the head is helping you remember that you walked into the store to get bread without rehearsing it. And the back midline of that has helped me do things like watch the road Heads up, heads up, oh, okay, who didn’t didn’t crash great. And that orientation thing is necessary and useful, and you’re always using it. But when your brain has a tendency to get stuck this way, because it’s powerful, or when you learn the world is not safe or predictable, really acutely and strongly and quickly, the brain will cramp up these resources, the cingulate, and when the one of the front cramps up, you get features of perseveration or obsession. And one of the one in the back cramps up, you get features of rumination or worry or threat sensitivity. So you’re stuck in your head stuck in your gut, but I don’t know looking at one person’s brain, I can tell that like you’re making a lot of beta waves and the cingulate and say, Wow, you’re cingulate, you’re pretty active. But I don’t know if the one on the front is representing an OCD complaint for someone, or they’re just a high powered CEO, who tends to get a bit rigid. I can tell it’s unusual, until it’s strong. But it lets me sort of say here’s a resource, and it’s operating in a way that is unusual. Here’s a plausible interpretation. What do you think? Is it is it interesting, and the one on the back? Same thing, it might be a lifeguard who’s helping evaluate the environment, or it might be somebody who’s experienced acute danger and threat and the brains that are experiencing a trauma response, we will help people walk through their data and then understand what’s happening and sort of recontextualize in some way stuff from a disease label into the actual resources that are involved. And then from there, you can the agency unfolds, and they can start making changes. So

Speaker 1 13:20
are you I mean, as I’ve mentioned, I had one and at first I want to say for anybody, it’s a it’s an experienced, it’s definitely a different experience than I’ve ever had before, but it’s very enlightening. And it’s also something that things I was doing, they were asked me to do, it seems very simple, like how they’re gonna get me any information from this ad that is scientific. And then when I got my results back, I’m like, Okay, now I see how you guys do it. So it’s something you may not expect to get these complicated answers where it explains how your brain is working, but you actually do, which is really cool and amazing. And again, allows us to go into the treatment side of it. So when you’re looking at the results from somebody, or you I guess it sounds like you’re looking at a combination between how each area of the brain is functioning. And then also are you looking at the interconnects between different parts of the brain as well, exactly.

Speaker 2 14:03
Connectivity patterns, the amounts of brainwaves and speeds of brainwaves, essentially, across the average person, one second. Dr. Your camera’s black.

Speaker 1 14:12
Yes, were there they were working on just making sure you knew I just yeah, they are going to keep going or until here we go. I am back. You’re back. We found totally fine. Just in case you didn’t know I thought Yeah, no, I, I, they second I was gonna say something. They found it. Yeah. So we talked about the connection into connection. So let’s go for pure listing and they are going to have these questions. So let’s say I am I want to be the most elite top executive at a fortune 500 company. Yeah. What are you are their characteristics a that you’re looking for? You mentioned one already? Can I be trained to opt to be a better executive? Is it something that you can make or is it just kind of inherent genetic and you’re kind of you are what you are? Or somewhere in between? So that’s

Speaker 2 14:57
an interesting question. Yeah, I don’t think we come out as Little like high powered CEOs who you know, in a little business suit, right, you know, who want to like be the man and stamp on the person in the little people. Now, yes, you can train resources, almost anything you can identify, you can measure you can change. Understanding the brain is pretty hard, but changing the brain is not. So the mechanism, the technology of biofeedback is essentially measuring something that’s varying in real time. And when it varies a little bit on its own, in the right direction, you applaud it in a way the body or brain notices, and then you create learning and you steer that process. So yeah, anything you can measure, you can change. Now, there’s not like a best CEO, the best athlete kind of brain necessarily, but what I would say is that almost everyone has the capacity for profoundly amazing performance, if there’s certain bottlenecks that are lifted. And I tend to think of this as resources and bottlenecks, not as high low performers, because you’ll see high performers with bottlenecks and they’re still performing fine, but it’s difficult and effortful, and they end up you know, high level CEOs end up burnt out and angry at the end of the day, not not flexible and able to go into listening mode, with their with their spouses or something. That’s a problem. But it’s a different kind of problem than somebody having seizures all the time. But generally, if you can work on the gross resources of sleep regulation, executive function, speed of processing, and stress, sleep attention, and speed, essentially, are the big things. I mean, IQ on an IQ test is not a real thing. As far as the brain is concerned that’s IQ decomposes into speed of processing, working memory, and implicit learning ability, while you can tweak your speed of processing and your working memory a little bit. So yeah, you can actually create higher performers, there’s studies showing that IQ goes up by over a standard deviation when doing Neurofeedback because you’re creating resource changes. So it’s more about what what you need, you know, what is your brain like? Or what particular resources would you like to you know, move so again, back to the cingulate, if I saw someone cingulate in the back and the eye could tell their brain was likely sampling and evaluating the environment powerfully that might get in the way. So it’s a hey, does this thing you know, do you ruminate? Are you stuck in your gut, kind of have a hard time putting things down that bother you? Oh, that’s true to you. That’s annoying. You want to work on that? Okay, great. And that can be true of somebody who’s experienced profound trauma and has classic PTSD. It can be somebody who’s just a little irritable, has a hard time settling. But you can flip the relationship into one of like, okay, here’s your brain. Here’s your performance. What would you like to do? You know, here’s some executive function stuff, here’s some sleep stuff. Here’s some anxiety features. Here’s some speed of processing stuff. And when I say these, you know, sleep stress, tension and speed, these are actually resources that that can be both measured, and as they fluctuate, they make big changes across multiple things to speed. For instance, if I look at your alpha waves, this theory your idling brainwaves, you can see the how fast they idle that most humans most adult humans about 10 times per second 10 hertz. So if you’re idling about 10 hertz, it’s typical. But if your brain is not idling quite as fast as the average person, your age or if the circuits are all kind of not synchronizing across the same speed, and you’re 30 or above, I would say something like, Oh, hey, wait, your office speed or speed of processing appears to be a bit slippery and dragging? Are you experiencing delayed recall and tip of the tongue and hunting for names little short term memory Blips? And you know, most of the time someone’s like, wow, yes. And then if someone’s 45 or 50, or 60, they’re like and I’m worried about that being age related cognitive decline. By the way, as an aside, I think you’ll appreciate this as a aging focus doc people are usually concerned 40s and 50s about dementia and big Jarrow, you know, big big geriatric declines, often very freeing and useful to know the first type of memory you lose when you have a big things. The big dementia is the first thing you lose and memory is episodic memory. first person perspective on scenes, things that happened to you. That’s what you lose first, speed of processing words, names, tip of the tongue forgetting things you were just told that’s actually not memory. It’s just speed. And you notice it when reaching for memory because it’s a very time intensive synchronization process. But actual memory circuits first and age related memory, you lose episodic are things that happen to you and the things that start slipping away. So if you’re not able to find words, you’re probably not sleeping deeply enough. Or you got some inflammatory stuff going on, you had COVID. And your brain is walking around with lots of delta waves trying to rest and repair all the time and you feel half asleep, like you’ve had a concussion. And then when you go to sleep, you don’t go all the way down into deep sleep and make lots of robust Delta because the brain has been making it all day long. So you see this like persistent metabolic rest, you know, Delta mode, and anything metabolic and COVID and chemo in apnea, and restless leg in mild concussions, you see this persistent metabolic sluggishness and you can’t tell it apart. You can’t tell an old concussion or two It’s caused something apart from someone’s post COVID brain fog that was six months ago, it looks about the same at a high level. But if you see it, you don’t have to know why it is. This is why you’re a doctor of medicine, and I’m a Doctor of psychology, I’m a mad scientist for you and a coach is because I’m not necessarily trying to find the discreet intervention. And I sometimes can’t find the root cause in the brain, because I don’t understand it that well, but we can spot phenomena you’re experiencing and push them around, it doesn’t really matter if the fog you have is because you have had, you know, some old wear and tear here and there, or because you’ve got dysregulated sleep architecture because you’re anxious, or because you had COVID last year, and you haven’t quite yet recovered your deep sleep. Doesn’t really matter why if you can spot the fog and fatigue in the brain, and spot, let’s say the stamina issues and a performance test, and you go, Hey, you’re looking kind of foggy feeling that you feel a little bit that you are, that’s annoying over on that right now you’re in a place of agency. And again, you can stop feeling. Once you understand your brain and look at data people have this experience of going, oh, oh, okay. Yeah, I can now be annoyed at it or frustrated at it. But you just aren’t really able to be ashamed or guilty. When you see your brain and see your suffering. See your ADHD see your anxiety, see your sleep issue, see your word finding issue. If it’s jumping out in big giant pictures, it changes your relationship with it suddenly. And then if we teach you to read your pictures, peak brain has this we give you a year membership with brain maps are free and your listeners will cut the membership in half, it’s usually 500 bucks, but we’ll cut it in half to 250. So folks can if they’re near one of the offices, unlimited access to come in, map your brain learn about it, dig into it. And so we have people I know some of our mutual friends in New York City are doing things like mapping multiple nootropics and looking at caffeine and methylene blue and all kinds of interesting rain effects in performance and in physiology, because you can tease things apart. You don’t have to use brain mapping for just Neurofeedback guidance. But if you do see brain activity clusters that are some rusting in a weird way and do seem to get in the way. That’s why I like EEG mapping as a technology because it frames the intervention immediately. It’s like, Oh, you got a bunch of back midline beta and you’re ruminating. Oh, okay, let’s work on that. Let’s see if we can make that you know, change. And it puts you in immediately a place of making intervention because then this is neurofeedback, stick a wire back there on the scalp and a couple ear clips on and measure the person’s beta moment to moment, measure their alpha, which is the resting mode of that tissue, moment to moment, whatever the beta happens to go down and the Alpha happens to go up for half a second. You say Ooh, good job brain and make a little game on the screen start to move. And a few seconds later, when the brain moves in the wrong direction for that workout that day. The game slows down or stops. And then the big trick is we move the goalposts every few seconds. So this is operant conditioning, but have an involuntary behavior because you can’t really feel your brainwaves. So you’re watching a little game on the screen stop and start a puzzle pieces fill in or a pack many dots or music play in silence and you’re like really? This is doing something to me. But your brain hears ketchup. Branca, jabbering? Good Jeopardy? Nope. Good job. Good job. Good job. Nope. Good job again and again. And this is no different than little baby flopping around who does little baby push up suddenly and goes? Well, I can see 12 feet instead of three feet. This is so cool. All this information. The brain remembers all the unique conformation of muscle so it can remember the associative you know, learning the states that produce the information flow. And then since we’re gently applauding, not just an event in the brain, but like the trends, you may have over half an hour, little runs of the brainwaves. brain goes, Hey, wait a minute. Oh, alpha back, there’s making stuff happen. Hmm. Okay. Cool. And usually two or three sessions in their brain goes, alright, I liked the information. I want that over no information. Sure. And it reaches for in this case, more alpha. And the person goes, Ah, well, I feel different. Hmm. You know that my imagine this? I don’t think so. Oh, it’s a little weird. And then it lingers for a few hours and wears off and you say coaches, I might have noticed, I don’t think I noticed anything. Okay, I tried again, you tried to get in, you’re like, oh, wait a minute. And then your sleep, your stress, your mood will flex after every session, like go to the gym and you kind of feel the next day will you work your brain out and you get a little flex in sleep onset or depth in energy and clarity and stress. And so you get this get a little transient effect, graded, evaluated, talk to your coaches, refine your plan, and then gradually iterate. And we map your brain again about every other month 25 sessions or so. And that’s enough Neurofeedback to produce usually a full standard deviation of change, especially if there’s any need in executive function on classic CBT tests, or on the same brain activity for ADHD or anxiety features. You can move them to that degree pretty reliably across people. So

Speaker 2 24:58
when you move that much on a belt curve it feels like an awful lot. And if you do a few months in neurofeedback, especially on the things of sleep, stress and attention, the stuff you’re using all the time, the brain is now practicing that stuff in a new mode all the time. So it doesn’t really wear off after a few months, which is now your new brain resources. And you get to sort of have that instability and push them harder if you like after that. I

Speaker 1 25:21
have patients who have ADD in long COVID And how do we how do you frame it for patients when they’re dealing with you or one of your colleagues? Okay, I gotta add, I’m the only one COVID I have some memory, some brain fog, when am I going to feel some improvement when they start doing neurofeedback? And what other questions do they do? Tell them what they should notice first, like, how do they know it’s working? What’s the magic in the in the potion here? How do you how do we frame it? Because this is not okay, here. Just take your antibiotic and you’re gonna feel better in five days. They’re putting work in and it’s again, like you said, it’s not a tangible, it’s not like your blood pressure goes down and your blood sugar gets down. So how do we frame this for people listening out there? To understand that pressure

Speaker 2 26:02
does go down actually need to get blood sugar stabilization? Back? Okay, generally, you tell someone, well, the way that we work at peak is you map your brain at the beginning. And then a couple days later, I go over data with you. And I walk through a brain map and an attention test and teach you to pick out the stuff that seems to be interesting and say this thing here. We think about it this way these brain waves this feature is part of the brain, here’s physiology, does this seem valid? Does this seem important to you real to you. And we trip over the big things people care about that way. And so usually by the time they’re starting neurofeedback, they have this sense of agency, like wait a minute, I’m working on my executive function, I’m working on my this. And so I would build a plan of little 15 minute chunks of workout and do a couple a day, or a couple three times a week more accurately, we would say to them something to the effect of people usually feel it three to five sessions in and then you get a little transient effect for a couple of hours up to 24 hours after a recession. Based on what happens we want to know how you’re feeling sleep stress and attention stuff shifting around other goals you have. And so we send client surveys twice a day, every morning, we send you a sleep survey saying how’s your sleep? And every afternoon, how was your day? So clients are making note of their goals. And we sort of Marco Polo our way towards success. You know, they define what success is it’s not a here’s what’s wrong with you, client. It’s a hey, here’s what’s weird and interesting and unusual. Which of these things might be Oh, that’s what that was important to you. Okay, and success looks like Okay, gotcha. And now we’re, you know, keeping our eye on that trying to elicit subjective effects. So after a few sessions, usually by the end of the second week, five, six sessions in you’re getting a little lingering effect whenever you do neurofeedback, and then when you do different neurofeedback, the effect you get feels different. So you can go whoa, I was kind of wired after that one. Okay, tweak, it’ll change the frequency treat the site. Oh, super chill after that one. That was weird. I like that. Alright, cool. You know, so you can kind of learn someone’s brain gently as you try workouts where a personal trainer does within usually making some tangible subjective benefits are emerging. And then you go to the objective the resting brain is changed about 678 weeks and you can see those changes. So we

Speaker 1 28:15
keep using the term neurofeedback, so we’re doing it neurofeedback, what’s involved is another headset, is it just a game was or some combination of both? Yeah,

Speaker 2 28:24
so, all neurofeedback is a form of biofeedback. Biofeedback is just a reflection of control system, you observe things inside so you can reflect back what’s happening unlike most forms of traditional biofeedback, which involves things like hand warming and breath, pacing and stuff like that neurofeedback is largely involuntary because you can’t feel the central nervous system. That’s the definition of neurofeedback. It’s biofeedback on things that are in the central nervous system. And for folks who are not quite so neuro savvy, the central nervous system is all this stuff inside of bone. If a nerves inside of bone, its central nervous system pretty much. So you can feel that you can feel the nerves in your peripheral nervous system. And you can learn to control like the the tension, let’s say in your body using peripheral biofeedback. And they do things for pelvic floor stability and incontinence and things that are biofeedback on the gut. But for neurofeedback, you’re measuring something you can’t feel you’re measuring behavior you’re not aware of, you know, you’re getting changed. There’s billions of things happening in certain specific ways in your brain all the time. can feel it, you’re kind of glad you can’t feel your brain by the way. We don’t have any sensory nerve endings in our brain. We can’t feel the tissue itself. Ironically, the thing that does all the feeling can’t feel itself. But you’re kind of happy about that because it moves not quite as much as the heart does, but it moves and it’s full of like amazing amounts of electricity and acidic compounds, all kinds of stuff. So if we could feel it, it would probably hurt all the time. Because it’s just so much going on. So, in the case of neurofeedback, it was billions of things. And you simply measure a parameter that’s fluctuating moment to moment, like, the speed is your alpha. And if I play a sound, or make a cargo faster, or make a pack made a.or, anything in the outside world, when your alpha speeds up a little bit, your brain goes, Hey, wait, that information seems to be contingent on me. That’s kind of interesting. The mind doesn’t usually the mind can’t feel its own brainwaves. You’re like, why is that sound keep happening? Okay? But the brain is like, Hey, wait more alphas making stuff. I like stuff. Hey, where’s my stuff? Oh, there’s my stuff. Like, oh, I can have more stuff. When I make alpha. I’m gonna make some alpha. And then the mind goes, Oh, wait a minute. Okay, I feel that so you get this involuntary exercise process going on, essentially. So train for half an hour three times a week and starting three four sessions in you feel different slightly. Afterwards you get this little subtle lingering effect. So the voluntary piece of it the work is goal setting, and is reflecting on did the workout land did the neurofeedback produce the thing you’re looking for, anyway, and if it did, you can sort of chase those effects and burgeon them and tune them to get better effects. And that’s the that’s the art of Neurofeedback to some extent is that understanding the brain well enough, understand the person well enough, and communicating around their goals and around what they’re observing to help design the next few days of workouts that they’re gonna want to push themselves around with.

Speaker 1 31:34
It’s amazing, the brain is very simple and very complicated all at the same time. And you got to know how to play with it and manipulate it to get it to go where you want to get to so you keep up with goals it can somebody come to you and say pretty much most goals are regarding their cognitive performance. And that’s something that you guys come up with a plan with at least up to possibly help to help them get there.

Speaker 2 31:55
So cognitive goals, there are emotional goals, a lot of anxiety stuff, electronic stuff. Really reliable work and Neurofeedback for creativity, have a disproportionately large number of actors in my client roster who often come in because they’re getting hammered in the red carpet or super stressed or they’re like, not sleeping well enough to remember their lines well enough or something. But the creativity boost that our actors or musicians either our athletes get is not insignificant. It’s a fairly dramatic and profound release of creativity. So the creativity work which happens to bring up T cells, the same end of the protocol pool people come in for T cell boosts or for creativity boosts or for migraines, or for seizures or for concussions. They also come in suddenly for peak brain because we’re not necessarily illness focus, they come in to understand their brain and just be I probably I would say something every year, I get one or two clients that comes in who says yeah, I don’t know just what’s on my brain and optimize me. Usually it’s suffering that drive someone’s you know, or specific goal, you athletic goal, performance goal, something or some suffering, you know, goals, to me are relevant to some extent, if they’re suffering driven or performance driven goals. They’re just goals and I want to frame our work in spotting, supporting, changing things toward your goals. But it ends up being a broad network where a third of our clients are neuro, you know, the classic sort of Neurofeedback population of autism and ADHD and seizures and migraines concussion in these days post COVID, brain fog and other sorts of neuro complications. And then we have the other third of the pool, which are ultra high performers at peak lot extremely high athletes, a lot of musicians for some reason, like very, very, you know, people squeezing the juice out of life, kind of, you know, performers. And then the last third is all the rest of us who are a little burned out who may have some issues with stress or drinking or a little hint of ADHD or whatever. And a lot of those people we started to get for the first several years we’re in business, we didn’t first start pitching ourselves as broad brain optimization, we were more focused on the populations of interest in neurofeedback, when we first opened up, we kept getting like, several kids with ADHD, let’s say, and then their parents would see the change and sign on and get really nice transformation, even without necessarily identified large goals or needs. And then you get people coming in, I get a lot of these every year who say, Oh, I have no problems at all, essentially, you know, I sleep great. No anxiety, I’m powerful. I run a military run a billion dollar company. Yeah, life’s good. But like, let’s, let’s get me more. And they have a person for everything. And now they’re looking for a brain person to like, just be a resource. And you look at their brain and you’re like, wow, this person looks really really anxious and hyperfocus Oh, my God, they’re not sleeping and you dig deep. And you find that they’re using Coke and coke every so often, and they’re really kind of like a jerk to their wives and they get home you’re like, okay, and I don’t care. They don’t identify that as a problem. But when they show yeah, I’m not as soft as I might want to be to my wife. I can’t be a good listener. I’m still trying to solve problems like at home. Like alright, we do a little bit of work on their sleep and whatever else and then we slide in some l Alpha Theta Neurofeedback for creativity and I got a letter or a call from their wife saying whatever you did do more of it. That was the best conversation we’ve ever had the therapy session was, he brought me flowers, because you can unlock stuff. So it ends up being tailoring the stuff you’re doing the workout possibilities, towards the stuff the person is trying to accomplish, and listening carefully and framing their goals in terms of their physiology and ever possible. So you can then try to elicit a change in their physiology they notice subjectively in their goals. So we really need to apply cognitive neuroscientists, I call it functional neuroscience, because we’re looking for, you know, this piece of it. And I also do the functional, you know, habit hacking and biohacking piece of it, where peak brain coaches teach all of our clients how to manage circadian rhythm to the classic circadian tricks or to do macro nutrient cycling to reset insulin resistance or 1000. Other things that might be in someone’s goal landscape, and how you might teach someone to do keto would be very different if they were a competitive lifter versus an eight year old with seizures. You know, you’d have different criteria, you might give them different management tools, you know, breath ketone versus a blood ketone meter, let’s say. So we do a little bit more broad, holistic biohacking for our clients. But you know, Maslow said to a man with a hammer, every problem is a nail. And gosh, my first knee jerk is usually let’s get a brain map. And because of that, we make them very accessible. And we teach it, read them and get you excited about them. So I

Speaker 1 36:31
am learning a much more big How big a scope is this, you can make new form better work and improve my love life. And I can, if I have writer’s block, you can fix that, too, is what you’re saying or

Speaker 2 36:43
design protocols that are likely to create change for you. And those those resources that you’ll notice, and that you will then be able to say, Oh, I think I got something out of that protocol. And together we can learn how to elicit effects in those directions. Usually, yes.

Speaker 1 36:59
Yeah. So brain map pretty much can help you a lot. The whole spectrum here, which is awesome, which I love learning things, when I talk to experts. So I’d happened to deal with unfortunately, a lot of patients either with some type of traumatic brain injury, so I wanted to quickly highlight that and in both either concussion or, or into, like you mentioned in terms of you started at the core of an issue with things like Alzheimer’s and add. So how does the is that process any more complicated any slower? I guess, unfortunately, long COVID may kind of overlap into that now. So is that same process that again, how does that work,

Speaker 2 37:37
same process at a high level, it is a little slower? Yeah. If you have a lot of TBI eyes or wear and tear, if your athletes collected a bunch of concussions and your beat off and your speed of processing and you’re chronically anxious, yeah, it takes longer, like if you just quote unquote, come in with major ADHD or PTSD. And it’s it’s pure and simple and classic, three or four months, maybe five, you know, makes massive changes for almost everyone. But if you come in with lots of wear and tear, like my NFL players, or NBA players are caught too many elbows and things, it takes four to six months, usually just to get us sort of where you want to be in stable, or folks that have autism, that with language issues and sensory stuff. It’s a bit longer than simple brain tuning like ADHD or sleep issues might be this amount of severity doesn’t affect how well we can work with things and some some extent the worst things are, the faster they move and brain training because you can see them and you can really be specific in the brain. Here’s your attempts to change when you’re that specific. But when you’re using tools in Neurofeedback for the metabolic stuff, the wear and tear, the brain fog, the post COVID, the lime the chemo, the apnea, the sort of metabolic hit the person’s taken, which looks very similar again, across causes. We often include not just the brain mapping in the EEG training, which is a classic neurofeedback, we do something called H eg training passive infrared hemo encephalography. So it’s an infrared camera strapped to the forehead pointing inward, and it measures waves of heat flowing off the brain as a proxy for metabolism. And you learn to do a vascular pump by thinking happy thoughts and concentration and getting a two second later bold response essentially in the brain, like the MRI would show you a little blood blood surge, second and a half, two seconds after you concentrate. So you can learn to create vascular pumping in your brain and see waves of heat on a screen and responding to voluntary thought and effort. So you’re kind of doing this weird peripheral nervous system tight biofeedback, blood flow stuff, doing it on the central nervous system, at least the support systems the vasculature so I’m not exactly sure what form of Neurofeedback or biofeedback that is, but PIR HCG is amazing for migraines, concussions, and for some reason, that technology that frontal lobe vascular pumping, seems to work really well for accelerating social function. When people have developmental disabilities, especially in things on the autistic spectrum. So it’s a blood flow tool, essentially. But yes, we would do EEG and HCG training and expect it would be four to six months for, you know, a lot of wear and tear and TBI. But again, the worst things are the faster you get changed. So Dr. Barry Sturman who sort of discovered the current form the modern form of Neurofeedback in the late 60s, he discovered it because it reduces seizures like he just kind of discovered my mistake a little bit, but sort of he was doing EEG operant conditioning on his his population, his animal population of interest, where he put a chicken broth, sorry, a eyedropper inside of the cheek of cats would squirt chicken broth into their mouth whenever they made a brainwave. The cats make a lot of as an as a reward. And that brainwave you’ve seen if you’ve seen cats on a windowsill being liquid watching birds, that physically relaxed state and laser like focus is called sensory motor rhythm in mammals, and we use it to sit still, we use it to stay asleep, we use it to inhibit seizures. So high SMR tone is literally the opposite of ADHD. First of all, why it has a very impact on stabilization of seizures. So, Sturman did this experiment with eight cats raising their SMR and proved he could condition it up and put them back in the subject pool and six months later pulled them out. But 32 cats out. And we’re exposing them to rocket fuel at the behest of NASA to see how dangerous rocket fuel was. It’s the 60s animal research and air quotes or air air quotes and every everything there Well, I mean mo research you know, we always try even today even back then we were we always tried to the least destructive thing possible. And nowadays we can do more or least destructive research. It doesn’t doesn’t harm creatures. In the 60s, computers, there was less in silica less what less known about basic science a lot more even ethical. Animal research was happening that that you know, took took animal lives. This is one of those studies and Sturman was for the purpose of NASA keeping astronauts safe was figuring out if methyl hydrazine was quite toxic because people were reporting symptoms nausea, hallucinating vomiting when they were near it. System was testing cats a safety study for NASA and he found that of these 32 Cats 24 of them had a perfect dose dependent curve when exposed to methyl hydrazine vapor where it was a taxi or stumbling drooling, crying seizure, coma death, a perfect dose dependent curve. But ADA cats and most of the cats are having seizures 40 minutes in eight of the cats two and a half hours and we’re just starting to show some instability events in the brain. When other cats were at the end of their dose curve response so to speak. And Sturman couldn’t really figure out why of course the cats appear to be super cats that were methyl hydrazine resistant, until he remembered that these cats may have been part of other sub other studies. And he looked and these cats had had their SMR brainwaves trained up while his lab assistant was in medication uncontrolled epileptic on member or Tegretol they let in huge amounts of it having 10s of seizures every week. complex partial mix tonic clonic just miserable. They built her audio feedback machine to measure her SMR and play tones when she made more. Over the next year she went off all all of her meds are made seizure free for a year. Wow. I was just started the field of Neurofeedback in 1967. And from there, it’s it moved into sleep and moved into ADHD moved into seizure because of SMR. Because it’s it’s central to executive function regulation. We also call SMR sleep spindles or sigma at night, the thing that’s fires to keep you asleep when a car goes by you kind of notice it but don’t wake up. That’s suppression of a rousing instinct when that’s appropriate. So SMR helps with inhibitory tone helps prevent things from reacting we don’t want them to in the brain be that motoric, impulsivity, or a seizure are waking up throughout the night. So again, a calm cat in the windowsill literally the opposite of ADHD.

Speaker 1 44:20
Physiologically, I’m an image that the rest of the day that’s my little cat just hanging out like little cartoon. So you mentioned something I want to get back to really quickly managed by this addressing social behaviors. I mean, if somebody if you can help if they’re there, I guess possibly help somebody if they’re introverted or shy, is that something where there may be a brain functioning issue that you may be able to help them or this I mean, again, it also could be related to potentially some other issues. That’s something that could be addressed. If people or if somebody doesn’t react well and so situations or ladder

Speaker 2 44:52
is more adjustable than shyness. Shyness may be normal and natural and good for you and works okay. But social anxiety Social integration, social cueing discomfort around people’s voices and eye contact. You know, I see that in people on the autistic spectrum and big cluster of tissue behind the right ear called the tempo parietal junction. I also call it The Princess and the Pea because it gets irritated at everything. And you’ll see it really hot and autism, and they’re just like a firehose, and it can’t filter it. You’ll also see really hot and people that have deep emotional, you know, the wounded poet, who’s like feeling all the fields and has all the thoughts and has all the resources with which to catastrophize and emote. You see that tissue is wide open and people. And so you can tell it’s kind of hot, you can tell there’s some sort of like the same people, you know, they’re gonna throw out all their roommates when they’re chewing too loud. And, you know, they notice every person suffering on the street corner. And yeah, if that gets in the way, and you want noise cancelling headphones for social information, or sensory irritability, you put a wire there, you measure usually the hot beta, and you let some alpha come up to replace it. And it’s like getting a voluntary Gain knob to turn things down. And when I say volunteer, I mean voluntary. We don’t take things away with neurofeedback, usually, we give you range. So the CEO that has that front midline hotspot might have some OCD. And after you train down the excess bait on the front midline, they can still turn it up, and they need to hyper focus, and then put it down at 5:30pm. And not hyper focus as another viable mode to be in. So that’s the gift of Neurofeedback honestly, is flipping you out of this perspective of suffering and overwhelm and stuff not working for you and into like a, okay, get some brain resources.

Speaker 1 46:35
They’re not at 10 all the time, they can go between a one and a 10. When when they need it. And

Speaker 2 46:39
you know, if you’re always on, it’s more like you’re always on an eight and a half, and it doesn’t ever feel good. But if you learn to turn it off to a one or a two, you can go flexibly between, you know, 111, no problem and it feels good. But if you’re always at an eight, it feels horrible, and you can never quite actually push as hard or soft as you might need to. And that’s true of per separation, rumination, social and sensory cueing. You can see executive function things pretty clearly. So ADHD, for instance, is not just a low amount of SMR. It’s usually a high amount of theta, which is lubrication. And you can tell based on which side of the brain it is, if it’s left side, and you have issues with things like the spotlight being bright enough and clear enough and stable enough, we call that attention or focus. And then the right side of the brain usually has the supervisor to know if you’re paying attention or if you’re gonna go squirrel, and it helps shut off the theta and bring up the beta the SMR beta as a way of directing the machine so you don’t end up with inattentiveness in the left, or impulsivity or disinhibition from the right failure of that sort of motor tissue to create SMR tone, which lets you sit still be still internally that kind of stuff.

Speaker 1 47:51
So I’m gonna how have you helped me answer a question I get all the time from my patients. So why Q E. G, they hear about all these things on social media, Reddit, whatever it happens to be now, there’s so much I get too much information, we have to filter it down here, but it’s Q E, G, there’s functional MRI there, SPECT is qu e g play well, are there differentiation that you can make simply to say, look, this is why QEJQ e g is better than specker. At functional Maya, I play in the playground here. Sure,

Speaker 2 48:18
I’m very biased, but we all should know that however, EEG is so much cheaper than an MRI machine. So you can get an EEG for a few 100 bucks. You know, it takes a grand an hour to run an MRI machine because of the helium and whatever else. So SPECT, very expensive MRI fMRI, very expensive. Also, one of the big issues with using imaging like spectra fMRI, to understand you, is there’s no reference point. So when Dr. Ayman looks at a SPECT scan, he can make a judgment call and say, Oh, this part of the brain, this little divot of activity, that’s this part and you you’re experiencing this, but the only people that can do that are people who work for the Ayman center who use back to been trained in that way, no one else can do it. Brain Mapping cue EEG takes the resting brain activity, and then age matches the comparisons. So you get a graded heat map of what’s unusual out of the database instantly. So that’s one way in which you know, the 10,000 people in the US who do neurofeedback, they all can kind of read the same brain map the same way and come up with a similar perspective on the tool. So that’s useful. More importantly, you then have an EEG solution sort of suggested, you know, if you do go into a spec, most folks that do spectra functional medicine doctors, so your spec is the place of SPECT, I find is unbelievably useful. Is the really really squirrely mysterious diagnosis you need if you don’t know what’s happening, if no one can figure it out. The spec is unbelievable at that. But the interventions or medical interventions or functional medical interventions, lifestyle, drugs, supplements, you know, great, but it’s the diagnosis you’re getting the value from what It comes to something like a SPECT scan or even an fMRI, and you need the person who knows how to read those that are ologists, who knows how to read blood flow in the anterior cingulate or something and knows what it means because there’s no database of blood flow across 10,000 people that you can look at a bell curve and go, Wow, that’s an unusual amount of blood flow for you doesn’t exist. So you have to only have the rarefied neurologists making those calls about what is true for you, where QE Gee, there’s five or six or eight commercial products, 1000s of cases, all the shape of data in them approaches that have the real population in the world. So you at least have a yardstick and you have some sense of what it means and then again, okay, it’s an EEG phenomenon, you’re saying, you can now push on that particular EEG phenomena. And see if you notice anything, you’re you’re given agency instantly to start taking control of it. And since it’s a pretty non invasive, transient, gentle way to push yourself around, it’s very low risk, a couple of sessions and you can try it. Oh my god, I’m feeling something great. If you don’t like what you’re feeling, don’t repeat that Neurofeedback protocol, and it wears off the next day or so you have to repeat something 510 1520 times to really get movement in the brain to so you have this freedom to like, see the stuff in a brain map or cue EEG and go, I would like to manipulate that. And then use Neurofeedback EEG training to go right after the stuff you’re seeing and use the same tool sets to watch things change over many, many months. So there

Speaker 1 51:35
we I liked that it’s an n of one versus and of many and little more can I get more more understanding is of QED versus SPECT and the other studies that are and I

Speaker 2 51:45
can teach you the features, if I showed you your alpha speed wasn’t as fast as the average person your age, and I said, Hey, you experiencing some delayed recall and tip of the tongue and you’re like, yeah, and then we trained your brain and three months later looked at it. And it was up to speed and you felt smooth and had good verbal fluency. Then yes, I kind of know what it means. But guess what, you know what it means better than I do. Because I’ve taught you look at the Alpha speed I’ve had you watch your internal word finding, you’ve transformed it, you felt that change. To me that is as valuable as the change is this perspective, you get starting to take control of some of these resources and iterating through like progressive agency instead of being overwhelmed by what is happening. So that’s my soapbox.

Speaker 1 52:31
Very well set on your soapbox, there. Thank you. Thank you. Now you can jump off and as we move into the future here, I know you’re bringing Neurofeedback not only to across the across the world now now going to London and Stockholm. But you’re now telling people that you said people do at home. That’s the start of the future of Neurofeedback in your institute. What do you foresee now in the next 235 years coming down the pike? I mean, you’ve already told me I can fix my love life and also make me be like the next Steve Jobs here. But what is the future hold

Speaker 2 53:00
for? So I can’t haven’t figured out how to turn on hair growth.

Speaker 1 53:04
I know both of us. Yeah, I’m for me. That would that would be like the homerun there, Eric.

Speaker 2 53:08
I know. Right. Like I have a long line of executives out the door that that come back for secondary training if I could. There you go. Yeah,

Speaker 1 53:15
that you fix this dosterone And you’d be you have need 30,000 centers, but I have some

Speaker 2 53:21
good tricks for middle aged dude libido. They’re not they’re not Neurofeedback tricks, but I got some good tricks that are non invasive. So there you go off and I often share them.

Speaker 1 53:31
All Fox and phone full of tricks, where we had him with the neurofeedback. And where do you see you’re going? So

Speaker 2 53:39
peak brain is about 80% virtual now, most of our clients don’t see offices, the ones that do just come in for brain maps, usually. You know, we have physical staff in London, Stockholm, Wellington. We’re probably partnering with somebody not in Australia in Sydney shortly and then we have the four offices in the US. So if you’re in one of the countries where we have a physical location, we can rent your equipment send stuff out very quickly. And if you’re not one of those countries, we actually work with clients in 30 or 40 countries already, because clients will just buy a set of hardware and software for themselves or their family. And we have seven day a week live support coaching the way we’re set up into the first two weeks of Neurofeedback live with you, we teach you the basics of traditional neurofeedback. So, where we’ve really taken an advance is we’ve taken the process of doing traditional tailored careful individual wire replacement Neurofeedback and made that scalable to a virtual environment. But there’s still a bottleneck in the process of neurofeedback, which is knowing how the thing you’ve tried it feels and the round trip of here’s the brain map. Here’s the thing you’ve tried, here’s what how it felt. Here’s what you’re planning on trying, how do you adjust it? That’s the personal training circuit. We have cobbled together a back end platform to kind of create this perspective on clients, their stage their transformation where they are with their goals. Are you know the unknowns in their, their changes thus far, etc. And what I would expect where we’re going not just in neurofeedback, but in I would guess it health and wellness, I would guess in finance, I would guess in all kinds of domains in life. I think in the next three to five years, we’re going to see intelligent agents, you know, AI, transforming everything. And I’d say AI is everywhere. It’s everywhere. And you know, a lot of what I do the reason that my colleagues that exist in the field know no one’s doing this high skilled neurofeedback, it’s really hard to do. And since the field existed, people have tried and failed again and again and again. And I might have the largest, you know, footprint of clients for neurofeedback. And they have around 200 active clients at a time or something, which is an awful lot for a single Neurofeedback provider. Essentially, what I’m doing that because I’ve got all kinds of domain expertise shoved into my head, you know, cognitive neuroscience PhD and 20 years of working with brands at the extreme and teaching people about brains for 20 years. It’s an awful lot and it’s a hard thing to replicate for neurofeedback. But if I can use, you know, the past 10 years of peak brains skilled decision making around clients with the complaints with the outcomes, to start training intelligent avatars to say, hey client with this brain map, this complaint, these goals, you know, what we’ll what have we done in the peak brain way historically, over time, I can start separating the sort of giftedness of clinicians in the field from the need to do that that level because you know, peak brain has pretty competitive pricing in neurofeedback, especially in New York City where you our prices are disruptively, competitive. Oh, my colleagues and learning how thankful I am. Yeah, they love how local we are, but they kind of hit our prices. Essentially, you know, for folks who are wondering with that little tease, it’s about 5k for a three month program, which you can get 50 sessions and so we’re under that $100 You know, threshold basically for for pricing. And in New York City, you know, it’s therapists are charging 300 bucks a session, same in LA. So it’s getting a little bit ridiculous because it’s a brain drain. You know, when I was in the field initially, being trained by like a second generation person since it started. I think there may have been more people in the field 10 years ago than now, the technology is getting easier. The amount of it’s out there, the costs, the barriers to entry are lowering. But the number of skilled people who can do it might be fewer. Because of this sort of like the first inductor Sturman is still like emeritus faculty, UCLA still does some neurofeedback, but other people in second and third generations have been dying and aging out of the field. The guy that trained me Dr. Larry Hirschberg on the East Coast, amazing autism psychologist, he retired last year, you know, and that’s happening again and again. So the skill of like, the high level personal trainer is also kind of neuro savvy, who’s also kind of like able to coach you. That’s been a hard thing to replicate and peak brain does it has done it by replicating the coaching piece with our sort of direct coaches we have worked with you and the sort of personal trainer or you know, head coach, working with you that way that kind of high end gym model. But where I want to bring it is where the phone app in your in your pocket, tells me what your ordering says and your coach goes on notice is that new protocol you tried wasn’t great for your sleep maintenance makes a small tweak. And you’re gonna pop up saying, Hey, thanks for the report. Tomorrow’s protocol is different. Here’s why. Essentially, I want to do that thing round trip without the in some ways really time intensive and labor intensive. And, you know, a lot of it’s just pushing numbers around so people can, can can have everything right there where they can make domain expertise, be that the the wellness coach, or the individual or the therapist, I want that like fitness tracker for the brain. But with not just all the information aggregating like a fitness tracker, but with intelligent predictive stuff. Hey, Joe, you you’re drinking every Thursday night and you’re kind of a jerk every Friday, you notice that as a feature with the avatar says, or, Hey, you’re experiencing this and these trends are happening. Here’s three health and wellness interventions you’ve done before that helped your circadian rhythms off. You may want to start fasting before bed again because last year when you were sleeping this poorly and you did that you get back on track quickly. That kind of stuff is I think where we’re going because I mean, when you and I were growing up, I’m not sure how old you are but there weren’t a lot of gyms and every corner not in the 70s that really happened in the 80s and our parents didn’t have gyms and every corner but you and I can look at a lipid panel and go whoa better back off in the Ben and Jerry’s and and tick agency you know and I think the brain piece of it is the next piece of it but it’s not as knowable it’s it’s it’s more mysterious still And it’s also more variable across people. So the information is less discrete. It’s like genetic information. It’s not as discrete, it’s additive, and it builds up in systems. So that’s where I think we’re going is having something, you know, the next health and wellness iteration is going to be something that can model interventions against it and say, Oh, given this brain given this complaint structure, given this recent experience, that he mentioned not going to work, but that one plausible, might work. So at that point, the cost structure of neurofeedback, the cost structure, brain interventions of self assessments of health and wellness starts to do to this point of view, the consumer and the access and agency play goes way, way up, even more than I think it started to with with technology becoming accessible,

Speaker 1 1:00:46
that that would be perfect. That’d be very, again, something of one of these apps is usable, and could you on instantaneous information be incredibly helpful. So where can people find out about the peak Brain Institute and learn more how you guys could help them? So

Speaker 2 1:01:02
we’re at peak brain institute.com. As far as the website, most of our socials are at peak brain LA, because that was our first office. So you find peak brain LA and Twitter and Instagram, etc. But I would say look us up and come on in. And we will give you guys have listened to mention this show and discount. So the five here are your membership drops to 250. That gets you unlimited brain maps and all the offices or you can use the same discount towards a remote program if you aren’t near an office. And we have longer to multi month programs for folks that aren’t near the offices to so greatly

Speaker 1 1:01:35
appreciate that. We’ll put that in the notes and also on when we post this on all the social media sites. And again, thanks Dr. Hill for hopping on. He’s always a bastion of knowledge. And as a way of I think you’ve done this before you have these all these analogies and ways of explaining what you do now. So I think you’ve done you’ve done this a couple times already

Unknown Speaker 1:01:55
across this pattern. Can you tell? Yeah, that’s

Unknown Speaker 1:01:58
a spontaneous.

Speaker 2 1:02:00
Good. I appreciate that very well, folks have heard me go with their brains will recognize a metaphor or two that I’ve used today, probably so it’s

Speaker 1 1:02:07
all it’s all good. So thanks for coming on life optimized. And we’ll see you guys soon.


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