Ep2 - Movement and Athletic Training with Erin Cafuro Makenzie and Brian Makenzie

Who can be an athlete? Dr. Hill sits down with elite athletes and peak performance and movement coaches Brian Makenzie and Erin Cafuro Makenzie. They talk about Erin’s training during the Olympics as well as Brian and Erin’s goals to help people understand their fitness and movement abilities.

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Dr. Hill engages in a conversation with elite athletes and peak performance coaches, Brian Makenzie and Erin Cafuro Makenzie, exploring the question of who can qualify as an athlete. The discussion delves into Erin’s Olympic training experience and the collective goals of Brian and Erin to enhance people’s comprehension of their fitness and movement capabilities.

The podcast with Brian Makenzie and Erin Cafuro Makenzie covers:

-Performance coaching and endurance training with athletes and coaches.
-Career path and holistic approach to fitness.
-Movement specialist training and marathon running.
-Training methods and plateaus in endurance sports.
-Overcoming running injuries through soft tissue strategies.
-Foot health and barefoot running.
-Rowing as a low-impact exercise for joint issues.
-Rowing, exercise, and surfing.
-Commitment, relationship with ocean, and endurance training.
-Athleticism, mental health, and lifestyle habits.
-Addiction and exercise habits.
-Obsession in athletes and movement practices.
-Athletic obsession and its impact on mental health.
-Movement, injury prevention, and mental preparation for athletes.
-Fitness, aging, and hypoxia training.
-Neuro feedback and brain development for impaired individuals.

Speaker 1 0:06
Welcome to another episode of headfirst with Dr. Hill. Today’s guests are Brian Mackenzie, who is a human performance coach and movement specialist and Aaron McKenzie, who is a two time gold medalist in rowing. So I welcome guys. Thanks for being on the show. Thanks for having us. My pleasure. Why don’t we start by having you actually introduce yourself? Give us a little bit of your perspective on what you do day to day. Start with Aaron.

Speaker 2 0:30
All right. Um, I? Yeah, so I was a professional athlete for about 10 years. And now I am working for a company called power speed endurance, which was, is owned by Brian Mackenzie. But I am running behind the scenes. It’s a endurance based programming and educational source for endurance athletes, and coaches. And so we are basically trying to cover all of our bases from running to, you know, triathlons to rowing. And it’s mostly for working professionals.

Unknown Speaker 1:10
Not just professional athletes. No, no, yeah. So

Speaker 2 1:12
we’re trying to, to, you know, now that I am a working professional, myself, and no longer professional athlete, I see that that is the need and you know, there’s a much bigger need for attention to giving, you know, education to everybody, not just the elite athletes like we had, we were fortunate enough to get so much information and you know, have access to so many people. But the every day everyday Joe that’s out there, slogging miles running marathons, triathlons, doing crash bees, everything they need help to? And absolutely, even more. So.

Speaker 1 1:53
Yeah, don’t don’t have all the same degree of dialing everything in with a lot of attention sometimes. So Exactly. Great. And Brian, tell us about you.

Speaker 3 2:00
Um, I, my career kind of started with a more quality versus quantity approach. And that’s basically where I’ve stayed. Although many things have changed. I became very adept at movement and understanding movement with people and in relation to injury. That in working with a lot of athletes, like athletes, who are endurance athletes, like runners, my specialty began in running, I worked with a guy by the name of Dr. Nicholas Romanov, very early on in my career, which catapulted kind of my learning curve into other areas versus sticking to traditional formats, going through traditional schools, things like that, I kind of have inevitably exited out of that, to get more of a broader understanding of things that weren’t being taught. And a lot of that has to do with physics or not that I’m, I’m I’m doing physics or anything, but understanding physics and things like gravity and how it works with you know, and how it’s a very underutilized or, or under understood, you know, not a very well understood thing that has transpired into more or less just the human performance world. Okay. Now, most of my work is done within X PT, which is my business with LAIRD HAMILTON and Gabby Reece, which is more of a lifestyle approach. So it’s a whole entire holistic deal where we’re looking at not only Hey, what are you doing for training, but hey, are you getting outside? You know, as we’ve seen with the CrossFit revolution, where, you know, a lot of people just go they work, then they go into a gym and they’re inside. It’s like, how often you actually getting out into nature and understanding this stuff. So

Unknown Speaker 3:52
moving from box to box isn’t isn’t like a life goal.

Speaker 3 3:54
No, I, I’m kind of, I’m a little, I try not to get into the gym too much. I do get into the gym, but it’s just I try and stay out of it as much as I can and try and focus outside more often. I more more often than not, you’re gonna find me in the water. Okay, these days, just because i My love of the ocean. Sure, and what I’m doing there, and obviously with a relationship with a guy like LAIRD HAMILTON, it’s very easy to do, since that’s where he’s most of his time is sure, sure. At any rate, we’ve Aaron and I have really always kind of looked at things from a more qualitative standpoint, especially for her like when she she dealt a lot of injuries and stuff and I’m sure we’ll get into it to really going, Hey, there’s something going on. There’s something else that could be doing here. You know, and Aaron was a very, very early pioneer or adopter of a lot of the stuff we were doing and not not just me, I mean, from her own side of stuff where she was going and implementing some CrossFit or even some movement based stuff. I mean, she was mentored by Kelly star at So, you know, there’s a lot of crossover with what we’ve done and how we’ve built that.

Speaker 1 5:06
Did that lead into you guys getting married? Do you have the congruent interest before? Getting together? Or just curious?

Speaker 2 5:13
Yeah, no. Kelly was I started working with Kelly back in 2007. Right before the 2008 Olympics. And yeah, I think I, I was a hard subject. I asked a lot of questions. And, and I think it was around 2010. You know, I was going to my into my second Olympic cycle, and Kelly had, he was just having his second kid graduating from PT school. And he was like, Hey, I have this friend down in Southern California. You just pawn me off? Brian? No, but it worked really well, because there’s some things that you can learn and read about. And, you know, research, but the biggest piece was the hands on Sure. There was nobody actually watching and giving me feedback on what I was doing. I was just going implementing, hence, a lot of my injury history. Okay. But yeah, so that was the big turning point. Once Kelly introduced Brian, to me, and he prefaced it with don’t make out with him. Okay. So, yeah, so once he introduced us, I he was working, you know, like, know that, you know, that’s not a squat. Okay. That’s not a push up, like what’s in actually would show me visually what I was doing and how to change it. And so that was, that was a huge thing for me.

Speaker 1 6:43
So this is that movement specialist thing that you’re that you’re for? Yeah. So can you when we say movement, what do you mean by movement, moving,

Speaker 3 6:49
sitting, walking, squatting, kicking things up? I just kind of it more from Hey, I was looking at how people ran to Oh, the specific exercises we’re doing to Oh, it’s just what they’re doing every day.

Speaker 1 7:04
So you started as a runner? Yeah. I come from a family of marathon runners. Yeah, I’m one of these people who’s not I don’t think I’m built to run. I’m sort of a stocky Scottish guy. I’m built for climbing up mountains, you know, and falling off cliffs. But yes, my little sister runs marathons. My dad’s a long term runner. Yeah, my body has never felt like you could handle running. And I wonder what do you think about that? Can anyone be an athlete of any sort of these movements, you know, cycling, running, swimming, or I think

Speaker 3 7:29
running is a basic human function. Okay. And I think people, and but there’s variations of that, Hey, am I a big guy who’s probably better at climbing up something and rowing something or, you know, fighting something, versus going and just running for days, or, you know, 26.2 miles or hunting an animal, you know, and it’s like, you know, certain whatever. They’re very, there’s very different approaches to things. But I think by and large, and we’ve seen this with CrossFit as well, which, you know, and I’m only speaking this because my, I spent 10 years teaching, you know, as a subject matter expert for CrossFit. I think human beings in general, like to look at what the elite or what the professionals are doing. Sure. And then they want to mimic stuff like that. So this hear of something like a marathon. Yeah. And they go, damn, I want to go run a marathon, okay. And it’s not, I want to go win a marathon, it’s, I just want to go participate in a marathon. And participation is a very big deal. And the reason I’m using this analogy is because very few people want to actually spend time actually getting good at like running five K’s, which is where most great marathoners spent a lot of time interesting. You know, they became really, really, really, really good runners at the 5k. Actually, they started well, before that they were doing it left, like less than 3000 meters. Gotcha. And they got really fast. And then they, you know, extended that a little bit and then they extended it a little bit more. And you know, one of the, you know, one of the people I’ll use is like somebody like Haley Gebrselassie or even Ryan Hall who’s recently retired, but both climbed the ranks through those basic 5k or 10k, half marathon, then marathon and then you see the same trend you see the same types of things that happened with world class iron manners. There’s no such thing as a world class iron Manor, who started iron Manning right? Sure. They started doing sprint distance they were world class they started doing Olympic distance they were world class than they actually moved up to iron and we as a people like study and I’m as guilty as anybody because I have literally went and scientists did a sprint triathlon was like up got my ass handed to me there okay, I am going to go sign up for an Ironman now. So I went from smallest to I’m gonna go do largest, you know, and then I ended up doing ultra marathons. The only thing I had in favor for me was the fact that I was looking at movement and understanding a lot of this stuff. Which is where a lot of the training methods came from the ideas on training. And even what was happening with my athletes at the time was we were seeing people who could actually participate in these things. But they weren’t necessarily doing as well as they wanted to, or they were just getting worse over time. Okay, so they had hit that plateau. And then they started to taper off and it started to become less than age was a factor or whatever. And, you know, we found that that was not the, the reality of it, when when you just train one specific way, let’s just take the long slow distance approach, you’re basically training for long, slow distance, nothing’s going to be fast. So your it’s going to take time to get there. The only issue the other issue with that is that when you ingrain bad habits in long, slow distance, that is a very long period of time that you have now taken, where in think you know, your mind, hey, how many, how many shitty habits do I create? You know? And how many do I stick to? I mean, this neurotic behaviors have I associated, which now has a physiological loop in it? Yep. Where I have emotional responses, I have all these things attached to it, and I can’t get out of this thing. Right? This is the exact same thing that I’ve dealt with. And it’s happened within CrossFit too, because people in CrossFit saw what guys like Rich Froning, who’s won the games four times, who continues to churn, you know, compete at the team level, who can handle a ton of volume, who worked his way up to developing all that volume, took the time to get good the volume, lost the championship, you know, not having a lot of volume under his belt, then came back, you know, and it’s like, they see what he’s doing, and they want to do what he’s doing. And it’s like, rich figured out what worked for him, worked out for him. And it was like, this was the difference between what Aaron did in 2008 for versus what Aaron did for 2012. And Aaron figured out what worked for Aaron. Okay, and and if other people come in and start to replicate what it is you’re doing that worked for you Sure. Don’t expect to get any better. Yeah. than them. Right. Right. You know, alright,

Speaker 1 12:11
so I did run in high school, you know, I had this identities are running family, and I’m gonna run. And so I did distance running in high school, and I was slow and you know, ponderous and ended up developing really bad shin splints. Yeah, to the point where it sort of, like you say, got caught up in this baggage history. You know, from then on, like in college, I was in on the fencing team at UMass. Yeah. And we would go run and I would go bicycle, because I just couldn’t pound my shins into the ground anymore. Yeah. And so eventually, I stopped running completely because I had this identity of, well, if I run, it’s gonna hurt and I never was able to get the mechanics right to not develop painful shins when running. Yeah, how would you deal with somebody like that? Who, you know, I mean, I’m 45. I haven’t run in 20 something years.

Speaker 3 12:54
I mean, I’ve dealt with that. You know, I used to deal with that weekly, you know. Injury is nothing more than a movement fault. Okay. The catalyst becomes whether it’s intensity, whether it’s volume, or whether it’s load. So those are the exposures of it. It’s kind of like a stressful situation with the with the mind, right? Like, look, we might all be just fine right now being in a very calm environment and making it safe and protective. But what happens when the shit hits the fan? Yeah, you know, what happens if we take you out? Since you know Laird, Hamilton’s? Somebody I work with? What happens when we go out into 60? Plus foot surf on Jet Skis? What are you What what’s going on with you then? Error? But yeah, exactly. And so we start to see things that start to change. And it’s like, how do we train to get to the ability if this is what you actually want to do? I mean, you know, and Laird has a letter, it has an analogy about all that. And he goes, Look, you can’t make an eagle out of a chicken. But you can make a super chicken. So So you know, you can you can train yourself to want to be to be able to handle certain situations. But if you really don’t want to be there, then you’re never going to be that eagle like you like you want to be you need to want to be in front of a 60 foot wave. And that surf. You don’t want to be somebody who’s not like, because the thought processes that happen when you’re in those situations. And these are the same things that happen with running. It’s just I’m using an extreme sense right now. People don’t want don’t look at it as an extreme sense, but it’s the exact same behavior where it’s like, Look, you really don’t actually want to be here, right? Yeah. So there’s no real sense in actually forcing this.

Speaker 1 14:44
That’s definitely true for me when I was running it was always a sense of I got to do this because I shouldn’t I shouldn’t be doing this not because I want to you know another personal example a few years ago, I got into sentry rides and was doing more cycling I can I’m built for a cyclist I’m really you know, heavy, lower body And I did a cycle, essentially ride with my right toe clip adjusted wrong, and about 60 miles in my right knee, but he pretty much failed, you know, the outside some tendons on the outside of the knee. And that was like four or five years ago and I still can’t really cycle for more than a mile or two before things start to lock up. So my identity is congruent with a cyclist, not so congruent with a runner. But I’ve managed to get injuries in both ends of things. And now all I do is aggressive yoga. So I mean, where would you take someone like me who would want to build these things back on

Speaker 3 15:31
one, it’s, Hey, let’s look at where are the pains? where the pain is at? Okay? B. Let’s look if we can apply if we can get you to apply any of the soft tissue strategies that we understand to that to start alleviating why the tightness why everything’s happening because it’s not your knees bad. There’s no such thing as a bad knee. Okay, there’s no such thing as a bad hip. There’s no such thing as bad ankle or bad wrist or bad knee or you know elbow before you injured it leaves. Yeah, yeah. Unless, unless of course it’s like blunt trauma, like you fell off or something that’s an entirely different story or a you know, a bullet. Like those are that that that is stopping movement. That’s a shoo in. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay. So most people are just reinforcing their, most people aren’t paying attention to what nature is telling them. Sure. And Pain is pain is nature’s greatest is one of great, its greatest assets to say, hey, wrong, you know, you don’t see animals going around and running around with toes internally rotated or externally rotated, they’re following the path of least resistance. They’re always doing that we do that as we do that as babies. Sure, beautifully. Then, at about five, we take our children, then we go, You know what, we’re gonna stick you in school. And we’re gonna, we’re gonna force you to sit down for six hours a day. And we’re gonna we’re gonna put you in these really cool shoes that mommy thinks are really cute, or daddy thinks are really badass, you know, whatever. Yeah. And we just start to mold the being into more like us, versus allowing that child to adapt and and be pliable and understand things on its own unique, beautiful level. And, and I’m not saying you need to have your kid barefoot, and you know, you know, hair down to their ass and run around. Like, you know, Mad Max is, you know, a little Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome. But I do think that we’ve really tried to systematize things because we don’t understand how to deal with stress. And we think that a system is what’s going to say, versus our own feeling and understanding that own feeling like hey, my foot, my clip was changed case. So what did I do here with that clip? Yeah, so if I’m internally rotated, there’s something going on structurally, and we know that you can rotate off the tip and fib at the knee a little bit, but most of that rotation is going to have to be made up through the hip, right. So that you know, looking most likely it thinks through the quads is where we would start get the soft tissue work, then start to look at you from a movement standpoint, like when he’s walking what’s going on, you know, and then or, Hey, let’s put them on a bike for a mile. And let’s see where the neat where yeah, that pain is showing up. And then we now have part of our solution is to wreck what he’s doing. And why is the pain showing? I

Speaker 1 18:21
think I need to visit you guys Newport Beach. Come on down there. So you mentioned shoes, you know, putting little kids in shoes. What is your thought about this? You know, barefoot running zero drop? And is that important? Is it a fad? Where do you fall on that?

Speaker 3 18:35
I think you should be barefoot as much as you possibly can. Okay, I don’t think barefoot running is the answer. I think barefoot running is great. In fact, if that’s what you want to do, I’m all for it. I don’t have any disagreements in barefoot running, okay, you’re always going to run faster and choose. But that doesn’t mean you can’t get really fast barefoot. The A lot of the concrete and everything that we’ve put in, I don’t know, the foot is entirely ready to handle all of that like, like from from a legitimate you know, at apt adaptation standpoint, you know, so have have we made those changes yet. And, and I just don’t know that we’ve made that. But understanding shoes is is a big thing. And hey, my toes, they all touch. They’re kind of you know, my little ones are like wrapped over each other. So those aren’t good things because those are early signs that you’re probably going to have some issues upstream of that. A foot should look like a hand basically, where the the toes don’t necessarily touch. They might be really close but they don’t touch okay. The entire foot should work. You should have an arch in your foot. You know, not having arches is another early sign that you’ve probably done some Oh, poor mechanical stuff. Okay. You know,

Unknown Speaker 20:03
can that be addressed to 100%? Okay, yeah, we’ve

Speaker 3 20:05
seen people who’ve taken flat suppose, you know, the term flat foot is actually not real. There’s no such thing like, you can actually draw the arch up off the floor. Yep, sure, it’s just the lazy stance. So you’re not actually being you’re not actually in a true stable position, and using the hip, you’re slouching with your feet. Yeah, pretty much you’re collapsing medially. So I think there’s, I think there’s merit to barefoot running, I, my suggestion is for people to walk barefoot as much as they can. Also, you know, if you’re gonna run, and you’re going to be in shoes, take your shoes off the end of the run, find a grass, you know, grass field, do a few 100 meter repeats in the grass barefoot, just to reinforce some better positioning, if you’re not going to be somebody who’s barefoot throughout the day, but I think understanding that any sort of a heel lift compared to the front of the foot is a man is, is a big, big thing. And understanding how you can actually change a lot of things in your life. Like in terms of, like, in a in a bad sense, like, if you were to stack blocks on top of each other, and you actually gave a mild lift to the very first block. And we were stacking them six feet high. Those blocks by the time they got to six feet, would have to be so compensated. Yeah, just from that minor lift that we do, you’re gonna be dealing with pain in some way, shape, or form and your wrist pain or your elbow pain may just be associated with that pain there. So you know, and ladies like to walk around in high heels. Yeah. Another bad,

Unknown Speaker 21:47
but isn’t good for you.

Speaker 3 21:48
That is terrible. Really terrible. Yeah, you removed dorsiflexion. So it’s basically just saying to your ankles, you don’t need to work which your ankles are a part of your foot, your foot is your only thing that is connected the ground. You know, like Kelly Starr at brought up years ago, the tissue on the hands, the tissue on the feet? is the same. Yep. You don’t have that tissue on your ass. Right? Therefore, we know what should be in contact with the ground most. And it’s definitely not your ass. Interesting. And yeah,

Speaker 1 22:19
definitely. So these are sort of getting into how you would approach examining movement problems and causes of injury, re architecture in the biomechanics, better habits, better training. When someone like Aaron, you know, came with lots of injuries? I mean, Aaron, first of all, was that the psychological mental, you know, you had you obviously, were pushing through injuries being relatively successful, in spite of, you know, wear and tear and weathering these things. What was the different mental game once you started to change how you move? What did you do to how you pushed your body, how you got injured, how you felt about your day to day training, pain and things like that?

Speaker 2 22:57
Yeah, so I kind of I come from from a standpoint of, I danced actually the first 12 years of my life, you know, modern, classical everything. And I think movement is an expression, I don’t think that there’s a right and wrong. Sure there’s something that puts you into pain, and doesn’t. But if you are continuing to get injured, yeah, I think you are wanting to suffer. You know, you’re wanting to put yourself in that place, unconsciously. Most of the time, you know, and I think that’s why I was mentally at the time when I was continuing to get injured. And I thought, you know, rowing and any endurance sport. That was, that was what I was told it was just a game of suffering. Okay. to power through it. Yeah. And that was the coaching cue. It’s like, if you want to go faster, go harder. Yeah. Instead of like, No, you can actually, you know, tweak a little bit here, tweak a little bit there. It’s just, you know, that was, that was the a lot of a lot of the feedback that I gravitated to as well as like, oh, you know, I just need to make it hurt more.

Speaker 1 24:01
Right. And then you were a world class athlete at this point. With this mindset.

Speaker 2 24:05
Yeah. And I was, you know, praise for that, too. And as are a lot of other athletes, and I think that’s what, you know, what draws people to endurance sports, sometimes they’re just like, oh, how long can I suffer for, you know, how can I suffer better? And it’s like, if you’re going into it with the idea of you wanting to suffer then there really is more emotional things tied into this movement. And maybe that is that is the cure, you know, maybe that that is that you have to go out and like Brian went out and suffered for 100 miles and then you realize that, you know, okay, well, that’s not really getting me anywhere. Like that’s not answering these questions that I still have. So now I need to look inside. Now

Speaker 1 24:52
of course, as an athlete, you’re always learning you’re always evaluating always sort of, you know, personal records and training routines. Did your mindset change when you started to get Some movement myths sort of meta supervision on the movement and how you were doing.

Speaker 2 25:06
Or how did you? Yes, it was, it was more it was it was a relief that it wasn’t just about going harder. Okay, you know, always going harder and like, Sure. And that injury is a sign of weakness. That’s the other big thing that, you know, a lot of coaches and I don’t blame on like, sometimes I, you know, I am coaching now a bit too. And I have no other, you know, when you have no other excuse or no other, you know, no other guidance to give your athletes like, Oh, you’re just weak, or you’re unfit or you know, you’re just not made out because injuries continue to show up. Yeah, exactly. And it really, that’s, that’s kind of the easy way out, you know, to to blame it on the athlete. Yeah. Versus the coach being like, okay, let’s figure this out. Okay, obviously, what what we’re doing or the cues I’m giving you are not resonating. And that’s the hard part about being a coach like, shit. It’s an granted I had, you know, a lot of years figuring out my body and feeling and now I know what feels right. And what feels wrong, but a coach can’t feel the athlete like they have to just see biomechanically does it? Look. Right, right. Right. And so it’s one thing for it to look right. And it’s another for the athlete to actually be able to feel it.

Speaker 1 26:22
Yeah, interesting. So I don’t have a good sense of rowing. I mean, I’ve done some running, I’ve done some cycling. My experience with rowing is being you know, a freshman sophomore at UMass Amherst, and all the other freshmen, sophomores were getting up at 4am. And coming back at 6am, completely beaten up leading hands, and then watching these incredible changes in their bodies over the first few years in the first few months in college. And they became these sort of massive athletes. But it looked to me like they were just, you know, they had these brutal, brutal early mornings, and they were just being sort of shaped into new people over a few months. That’s probably not how the average person rose. If I had to guess, like, especially those who aren’t doing it sort of professionally at a competitive level. What are some of the benefits that the average person would get? Doing some rowing? Learning that skill? Yeah,

Speaker 2 27:06
I think it’s, that’s kind of the initiation. That’s funny, because I was just coaching some guy and he’s like, Yeah, I wanted to roll but I didn’t want to wake up early. And it’s, it’s kind of the self weeding process. Again, it’s a sport that has has tradition and just suffering. You know, like, instead of being like, oh, let’s tweak this is no, can you show up at 5am? Right,

Speaker 1 27:27
right. So conserve middle age non rowing guy like me. Now?

Speaker 2 27:31
Yes, I think I think rowing can open up its doors to a lot more people because it is such a great full body exercise and especially for people who have history of, you know, joint issues and it’s a new you know, it’s a new movement that a lot of people haven’t done before, like a lot of people have tried running a lot of people have tried cycling, swimming, rowing, you know, is really low impact on the joints. And it’s just it’s a very fluid rhythmic movement. Right? I think that’s that’s part of that’s what really drew me to it. Especially for my dancing background is just you get to this point where you feel like you aren’t even working anymore because you just fall into this rhythm and especially across the water Yeah, even on even on the concept to or the you know, the static herbs that are in the gyms Yeah. But the best part of it is actually I have my teammate here from Serbia. She was Rhoda cow with me in 2005. We were just talking about this yesterday of like, the best part of rowing is rowing with someone else to get to fall into their rhythm and like you just have this connection of course you guys are both going through pain but it’s really not that painful when someone else is doing it with you and you just fall into this rhythm together and it’s it’s a really like it’s a rad thing.

Speaker 1 28:55
Yeah, I’ve certainly I grew up in Boston area. So I’ve certainly seen on the Charles you know, there’s there’s amazing teams of people perfectly synchronized with a Coxon you know, calling time and it’s just it’s a beautiful thing but honestly my own experience of running as being a little kid in a rowboat, you know? Yeah and rowing out to like pull lobster pots in a you know, in a bay or something. So it’s not exactly the same kind of experience functional

Unknown Speaker 29:14
rowing functional. Exactly.

Speaker 2 29:16
Exactly. And I think you know, if you if you do get in the gym or even take roll the rowing machine out of the gym, it’s my preference these days to get a little vitamin D but you know, start start on the rowing machine, figure out the movement and then add the instability of the water okay? Because or, you know, just go in the water and then put on a bathing suit. Don’t it’s okay if you call it BB

Unknown Speaker 29:44
okay. Anyway, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 29:48
But yeah, no, it’s a sport that I think we can it can open up a lot more doors the only so the the main reason that rowers like to get up that early Yep. To row is because the water Flat? Because it’s called the weather. Yeah. And so sure, yeah, there’s definitely the initiation, can you wake up? Right? Will you wake up to be part of this team to, you know, commit to everybody, but also, it’s a lot easier to roll in the water flatters doing?

Speaker 1 30:15
That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. And of course, my experience of rowers is in college where they’re all doing it before classes. So they’re going to like, the Connecticut River and Massachusetts. And you know, that becoming back at like Don said to be very, very early. Yeah. So that’s interesting. So, of course, you Brian, our water guy, it sounds like these days, a lot of your workouts in the water, a lot of your personal exercise. In I grew up on the water, I sell boats put lobster pots in the Northeast, the ocean in spite of being that I mean, I’m terrified by the ocean. I’m honored a lot most people still terrified by so how do you go from that sort of, you know, appreciating the majesty and danger of it from afar to being somebody who’s you know, between 20 foot waves? Where’s that as inflection? I mean, I’ve been living in California now for like, 15 years, 1012 years. This idea of starting to learn to surf is kind of exciting. But I’m a kid from Maine. The idea of surfing is a little bit strange to it.

Speaker 3 31:11
That’s an interesting question. But you know, I mean, maybe it does, is it all mental, if it has to do with waves, like you just need to have a love or passion for the waves and want to be able to progress that if it’s for the ocean, like I want to go like there’s guys. Like, there’s guys like Mark Healy, who, who’s one of the greatest Waterman in the world, BIG WAVE SURFER, freedivers, spear fisherman, I mean, he has an intimate intimate relationship does a lot of conservation work with, in the the constructs of, you know, the ocean, he’s a ginger kid that lives in that limbs in, you know, a wahoo. You know, his life has been literally, you know, he’s not supposed to be in the sun that much I completely understand. Right? You know, and but he is he’s figured out how to do it, he’s figured out how to go and be deep in the ocean and get and have relationships with things like sharks and understanding sharks deeper. You know, you know, but it’s the interesting part of the question is, it’s like, look, you know, and although I brought up like, 60 foot waves or whatever, I’m not writing 60 foot waves yet. But I’m out there, and I want to be out there and it drives me to want to be out there. I’ve been doing some towing in for probably last four or five years now, with friends who are connected in that world. And that’s been a progression itself. It’s interesting because being around somebody like LAIRD HAMILTON or Mr. Keeley people are fascinated with what they do. And they’re like, Oh, my God, I mean, how do you ride these waves and, you know, layer layers written 100 foot plus waves. And that isn’t really something fathomable by the by normal, even if you see it on video, if you were to watch it, like live, it’s an it’s an onion, like you can’t understand it. And the idea is, it’s like, how did you do that? And it’s like, well, what you’re not looking at is that there was some this kid that made a commitment. Yep. When he first learned what a wave could what he could do with a wave. Yeah. And he continued to chase that commitment and trying to understand that commitment and everything around that commitment, and how it transpired. Like, it started with shorebreak, it got a little bit bigger. It started with understanding the ocean floor, and why the ocean you know, why waves do what they do. And you know, and you know, it just goes on and on and on and on what you can learn. And nobody’s going, Wow, what a commitment. Right? Right.

Unknown Speaker 33:42
They’re like, wow, what skills you have? Yeah, oh, you’re

Unknown Speaker 33:45
just so talented. Right? Right. It’s

Speaker 2 33:47
no different than the example you just gave of the marathon runners or, or even like the Rich Froning. Like, you know, and I think that’s, I have a, you know, I’m not extremely comfortable in the ocean either. And I think sometimes what I think our biggest fear is, is to be out in a situation that we’re not comfortable with, sure, but everybody can stick their feet in the water, right? Everybody can start there. Everybody can walk around the block, just start somewhere just become, and I think it’s with everything that you’re scared of. It’s not jumping into the deep end, right, literally just getting your feet wet.

Speaker 1 34:22
So this commitment that you’re speaking about, Brian speaking about is sort of like developing a different or continuing depth, deepening relationship with what you’re doing. How much of that is similar in your perspective to what happens when you’re mastering endurance, you know, long distance activities, how much of it is the relationship versus the brute forcing it and keeping yourself going?

Speaker 2 34:45
depends on the person on the athlete for sure. I think there’s some people and that’s, that’s literally, you know, why I look at someone like Laird, he has a he’s a different athlete he has it’s more of a relationship with If the water okay, and himself and you know nature versus a lot of athletes, including myself that I’ve been around, it was a race. Yeah, when Yeah. And to train to when to, you know, in, you’re just doing it, who for some glory, and being, you know, fine going on the other side of the rainbow, you’re standing atop the podium, I can tell you that that lasts, you know, well about the length of the national anthem, right? You know, and then it’s, then it’s over. And then granted, you have you know, those stars on your shoulder. But if you have a relationship, and you have an appreciation for the your movement practice, or whatever you decide to do, whether it’s it is studying, or getting, you know, getting being a neuroscientist, it’s like, you have to have a relationship with it, rather than wanting something from it. So

Speaker 1 35:58
you’ve put him to a lot. You’ve been up on that. That those steps a lot. Yeah. Now you’re retired. You’re your coach. At this point.

Speaker 2 36:07
I’m old and out of shape. Yeah. Yeah, I

Speaker 1 36:10
think I’m the oldest, at least in shape person sitting at this bench right now. But that’s right. How has your relationship with rowing change? I mean, do you still do long distance endurance driven? Do you still like to, you know, get behind the oars, so to speak? Or are you is relationship with that whole process shifting a little now? Yeah.

Speaker 2 36:26
If we could put some nodes on my head to measure all the emotions and, and whatnot that you go through? It’s been a process. And it’s been four years since, you know, the last Olympics. And everybody it was so funny, because everybody was like, Oh, do you miss being there? Or do you miss go? Like, how was it? And it’s like, at first, I was just pissed, people are asking, but as Brian and usually, and I remind him as well, when you’re pissed and like angry about something? It’s usually because you need to understand it more. Yeah, you know? Sure, sure. And so I think what I’ve taken away from it is that it’s, it’s hard to step away. So having that relationship of just wanting to win, just, you know, being on top of the podium being driven, of just being the best in the world. Sure, it gets you gets you on top of the podium. Yeah. But then the aftermath of that. And I decided to retire not for physical reasons. But for I just knew there was so much more I wanted to experience and the world,

Speaker 1 37:33
it must be a very singular drive if you’re Olympic athlete or have Olympic aspirations. So much of your life. Across four year cycles must be focused on that moment of competition. That’s sort of this looming thing in the future you must hit because it’s coming around every so often. Yes.

Speaker 2 37:49
And with that, you get a hall pass by everyone. You know that? Yeah. And understands and what that you lose? I mean, like, I lost a lot of friends who were just like, No, you’re like, aren’t, you aren’t being a good friend, you aren’t being staying in touch. Like when you when I have kids, or you know, get married? Or there’s a funeral you aren’t there? So no, you’re not a good friend anymore. And I think that’s the thing that a lot of people sometimes are in, they still would be like, Oh, no, I understand. You can’t go anywhere. You have to, you have to train for this. But you’re so you get this hall pass for like, you know, four to eight to 12 to 16 years of your life, that it’s okay to not be, you know, a contributor, just society. Really Sure. Because you have this bigger goal in mind. And I think, you know, this is obviously just where I am with the whole movement. I think the Olympics are a wonderful thing, because it still really is an amateur contest, but and, you know, originally it was just a practice to, or, you know, event to praise the human body and what it can do and, and it’s a beautiful thing for sure. But what a lot of people don’t see is on the back end of that, like, what happened to all those Greeks, after you know, they were it’s like racing horses. What happens the racing horses, glue glue. Yeah, exactly. And so I think that’s kind of where I’ve been heading and just kind of watching my teammates and how they’ve been adjusting. Whether they immediately adapt that to a new goal, okay, which I’ve tried to do and I’ve tried to like, I’m gonna go run a 50 miler, I’m gonna go do you know, and just taking that drive, but that’s, are

Speaker 1 39:45
you finding places in your life to apply that same like, you know, 10,000 foot goal kind of approach and then pursue those things? Are you working more in the microcosm now?

Speaker 2 39:54
Yeah, I’m trying to figure out how to use different parts. of my body besides just willpower, okay? All right, if that makes sense? Sure, absolutely. No, like, there’s Yeah, I’m just going, you know, studying into, you know, yoga, the study of yoga, not really actually doing too much Yoga. But I really, I really like because, you know, the sauna or the, the movement practice is just one piece of it, it’s actually, you know, there’s a lot of really good pieces written about it, and, you know, Buddhism and all of that, and, you know, without making me sound like I’m doing going too far into the weeds. The only thing that’s really resonated with me to, to make sense of this all of like, okay, you burn out your willpower, you use it a lot, and you got really far. Yeah. But I, I’ve had a hard time applying it to something else and sticking with it. And it’s most likely because that flame is like it’s burning. Yeah. You know, it’s

Speaker 1 41:01
also getting focused in one specific direction for a long time. I imagine it’s hard to you know, refocus that a little bit.

Speaker 2 41:06
Yeah, yeah. And, you know, I have a very good partner. And he’s, you know, he is nine years the Wiser of me, but he just kind of sits back and is watching this process of, you know, me trying to figure things out. And I do think that in a big way, athletes could be on, you know, have the same wavelength of addicted, you know, people to substances.

Speaker 1 41:37
Sure, yeah, that certainly happens in athleticism. I mean, everything from the that is distorted body image, Orthorexic diets, where you got to be this way about your diet. And well,

Speaker 3 41:47
I mean, it’s anxiety, it’s depression, it’s alcoholism and drug addiction. It’s I mean, you want to know, the list of, you know, drug addicts and alcoholics that are doing ultra marathons.

Unknown Speaker 41:58
And most probably, most of them Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 42:02
You know, it’s a it’s a very,

Speaker 2 42:03
it’s a drug. Yeah. Dopamine is drug. Absolutely.

Speaker 1 42:08
Yeah. So so not everyone, of course, is going to be an elite or long distance athlete. You mentioned yoga, what other sorts of other sorts of you know, lifestyle, if you activities do you think are useful or beneficial, both mentally and physically for folks to engage in who aren’t necessarily dedicating vast resources to becoming profoundly good athletes? You know, what things were helpful or should be

Speaker 2 42:29
one of our good friends? Doc Hickey? He says, the best workout is the one you do is the one you do.

Unknown Speaker 42:36
I know I’m

Speaker 2 42:37
sure he didn’t make that up, you know, like, it is. That’s the first thing again, it’s just getting your toes in the water. You know, like, start with that. And I think we all have these, including myself, and I know very well, like these grand dreams of like, I’m gonna have this perfect workout. I’m gonna do you know, work out six days a week, and then rest one day are even at the elite level. That doesn’t happen. You get injured, yeah, sure, sick. Some your partner gets sick. Things happen. And so I think when we hit those hitches, like, you know, your knee hurts, and usually injury is what makes people stop moving. Right? And unfortunately, you know, my parents, that was the big thing, that they’re now you know, getting hip replacements, knee replacements having diabetic issues, because they have injuries that they just didn’t wanted to learn more about. Sure.

Speaker 1 43:34
We didn’t know I mean, you know, our parents are old enough that medicine has actually advanced in the past few decades. My mom had some knee problems, you know, built kind of like me, you know, short, stocky, and about 10 or 15 years ago, she had bilateral knee replacement. And she was, I don’t know, like 55 or something pretty young for knee replacement. I have both done at once. And went from being a slightly overweight, slightly tired, you know, middle aged person. My God. Now she exercises four to six hours a day, she canoes she swims she, I mean, she’s 67 or 68. And she works out more a day than I ever have in my life. Wow. And it was just you know, getting our knees back functional, freed her to engage. Got

Speaker 3 44:18
surgeons who you know, you’ve got orthopedics that will do surgeries based on that. And that’s why we should be doing surgery. Not for functional ability. Yeah, not because you’ve just worn this out and you’re just gonna go wear that out. You’re not going to do that or you know, you’re just going to it we’ve fallen into this world where we use Western medicine as a as a means to take care of our lives. That is not what it’s intended for. Its intended Yeah, like like prescription medications like knee replacements, hip replacements, I mean, I’ve had my hip resurface like I’ve had my hip kind of read pretty much redone other than having it you You know, the bone replaced? You know, we get into these places where, hey, if I just continue to take this, or I’ve got this crutch, I can continue to do what it is I’m doing. So basically, I’m buffering off the behavior of the stuff that’s getting me into trouble,

Unknown Speaker 45:17
the Festering Wound underneath the band. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 3 45:19
It’s just Yeah, and this is, I mean, we deal with a lot of, you know, mental disorders, or even people who are drug drug addiction and things like that, like I have dealt with this stuff. For 20 years, I’ve trained people for about the same time, I saw a direct connection between people and exercise, and either alcoholism, drug addiction, the same patterns that are going on. Sure, you know, and these aren’t people who go out and drink alcoholic li or do drugs, right. But they’re doing the same type of behavior pattern. And it’s like, you start to catch on to this. And it’s like, yeah, what are we really not dealing with here? Like, and it was just, I mean, hey, that was part of me actually having to really stop, not drink and understand why when I drank, I did the things that I did. And, you know, oh, that’s why and it’s like, it’s not that, you know, my, I’m my identity is I am an alcoholic, or because I’m not I drank. And if I want to live on that, sure, I can, but I’m no further away from that than I ever was. Right? Sure. But if I’m going in, and I’m using the exercise, or I’m using the medication, to just continue to eat the shit that I want to eat, and bang my knee or let my knee hurt. And then, you know, just continue going down that cycle. Why should that’s not what Western medicine was intended for. And that’s what so we’ve got a big misconception of it. Okay,

Speaker 1 46:45
it makes sense. I do a lot of addiction work myself, I actually have worked in an alcohol. Yeah, and I have a former clinic I used to work in, we had a moderation approach where we reintroduced alcohol into your life if you’re abstinent and wanted to try to drink again. And the whole focus of that center was not so much the substance you were using, or the consequences it was the relationship with the substance sounds like that’s congruent with the with the obsessive exercise. It’s the relationship with the even dysregulated

Speaker 2 47:15
you know, now it’s like I was obsessed with it. Really? Now. It’s like, I everybody’s like, Oh, don’t you just go out for like a paddle and it’s beautiful. And I’m like, no, no, I still am not at the point where I can enjoy it. But with all of this movement is still a necessary thing for us humans. Sure. And I think that it is a good way to balance out the stress we create upstairs. Okay. So I mean, as much as we’re, I think we’re on we’re definitely on the on the other side, we’re we’re talking about people who are obsessive exercisers, worker routers, fitness errs, you know, or even for, say, elite athletes, you know, there has to be some obsession in there. Yeah, I see

Speaker 1 48:03
it. Yeah. Do you think you would have been as successful as a rower if you had not been obsessed in 2007 and 2011? I mean,

Speaker 2 48:09
it’s, it’s so funny, because everybody’s like, Oh, you know, Rich Froning. Like, works out five times. This guy who won some CrossFit Games thing if you didn’t know who that is, but anyhow, it’s a guy who was very, very successful, and extremely good athlete, but he came and worked with Brian. And I, this was in 2013, or 2012. And I literally was watching him. And I was like, Yep, he’s in the matrix. Like he is in their chest abscess you recognize

Speaker 1 48:38
that like, lays that a 10,000 yard stare on a goal which

Speaker 2 48:42
I think us as humans aren’t we praise it we will look at it and look at it as such, like this thing that’s we all envy in are like, Oh, we I wish I was in that tunnel with you know, yeah.

Speaker 1 48:55
So there’s other ways of being successful as an athlete beyond that, is that what we’re hearing?

Speaker 2 48:59
That’s what I think. I mean, I don’t I’m trying to figure it out before I talk too much about it because I’m like, I swear there has to be another way. There really does. And I know I’ve met some athletes that have had this great relationship with their movement practice more they continue to just move throughout their whole life you know, Laird being one of them. I think there’s a slight obsession there for sure. He has to get in the water if there’s no waves and he there’s nothing to do like withdrawal who don’t want to be around the house like within like a mile or so. He just has so much pent up energy you know,

Speaker 3 49:39
but I mean Yes, any buffers that off and he but he does have that obsession and I think that’s but it’s a healthy obsession to a large degree. Okay, that I think we’re trying to get to like where you got to understand what a healthy obsession is, and how to take that down a notch into reality because here’s The problem is that the real world doesn’t work on a competitive basis, like the athletic world. When you don’t win a deal, or get something or somebody or you lose a client, yep, that that’s not losing that that’s like, hey, there’s gonna be another one, right? Like, sure. Real soon, you know, and it’s not easy. You look at for years, and if you lose the race, that’s a big, big problem.

Speaker 1 50:29
And it’s not just the next four years that you’ve sort of lost. It’s also the two to three to four years, you just put in getting here. Right?

Speaker 3 50:35
Yeah. And then you’re thinking about that now. And so it’s really an

Speaker 1 50:39
eight year cycle to based on your sport in terms of one opportunity for exertion. And so yes, but I

Speaker 3 50:45
mean, Aaron, I think, in my opinion, Aaron, although we’re talking about how her experience out of the Olympics now has happened. Aaron navigated pretty well, from 2008 to 2012. In 2008, she had how many rib injuries by 2010? Had you had?

Unknown Speaker 51:03
Five, one a year? Yeah,

Speaker 3 51:06
she had five, she had broken five ribs, she had basically been a mess. How do you

Speaker 1 51:11
break ribs growing? How is it just your muscles when it

Speaker 2 51:14
comes like you can like she had shin splints once you can start feeling like this little impulse, and it’s just literally, you know, a lack of mobility, and then also your shoulder being out of position, okay. And it just strains a certain part, you know, is and of your muscles, you just get tight and move and your ribs are actually pretty flexible. Right? Of course, you also have your lungs and diaphragm hitting from the inside. And so, you know, perfect storm,

Speaker 1 51:46
right. Interesting. Perfect Storm. Yeah. So I mean,

Speaker 3 51:50
but just to parlay on that is it’s like she went from being injured to not having any injuries to crying at the end of a gold medal race, because she felt like she didn’t work that hard in the race, and she could have gone right back out and wrote again, it was like, Well, no, that’s what it’s supposed to feel like when you’re healthy. Okay, you know, not beaten down worn down.

Speaker 2 52:13
I was looking for the suffering. Yeah,

Speaker 1 52:16
you know, when I was running in high school, we would run it was cross country, so long distances, mostly, and half of us would stop the race and throw up at the end of the race like that. That was a sign we had we had given it, you know, after all that left it on the field, so to speak. And I didn’t always obviously, I was always a little bit sort of dismayed by that, that all these you know, amazing runners were hurling into the bushes at the end of our cross country, Reg. So let me ask you guys, let’s finish up with this. You have a really broad experience working with elite athletes being elite athletes working with PSA prosumers people that are you know, not quite the elite, but still very orient towards fitness, CrossFitters, etc. Across all types of people. Are there any commonalities any things you think or principles that are important to hold in mind as you engage with movement as you consider your body as you move through challenges, other principles that seem to be true across people, regardless of what level they’re performing at, in terms of continuing to move further and better and get more control of what you’re doing? To the stump the the guest part of the this

Speaker 2 53:28
is the most quiet part of the whole podcast.

Speaker 1 53:32
So let’s just say if you had three things that were the most critical things to tell people about movement about success in life, and

Speaker 2 53:40
we’re just talking about every everybody Yeah, in general, are

Speaker 1 53:43
the things that are true across no matter what level you’re performing what what might be true. Just

Speaker 2 53:48
start, okay, just start. Yeah. And again, I think that’s kind of where I’ve gotten in with analyzing my biomechanics. And it’s not, you know, there’s a perfect way to move and I’m injured and there’s, I think being scared of injury or be scared of doing it wrong, is a much bigger barrier than actually just, you know, then we just start, okay, just get your toes and toes in the water. And that’s how you know every everything begins really. And I think it’s, again, what we’re talking about throughout the whole thing of like, don’t go run a marathon don’t go try to serve 100 foot wave, okay.

Unknown Speaker 54:31
That’s mental preparation were taught Don’t ever say, yeah,

Speaker 2 54:34
just just start and practice. Get into the practice of it. Don’t get into the competition or the race of it.

Speaker 1 54:41
So you think the the the equation of performance is more heavily weighted towards the perspective and mindset versus the physical? Is it largely a mental game? Yes. Okay. Yes.

Speaker 3 54:54
100% I think you just need like Aaron said is just starting. That’s an action. That’s just taking Art in something that’s going on in your head? Sure. So if you don’t actually like if you’re just thinking about something that I want to do, and I have some fantasy about this thing, or I’m afraid of it, yeah, just go do it. Go do it on the most basic level, start it move, like, like moving is just something fundamentally we were not weird designed to not, not do, right. If you stop moving, the game’s over, like, you’re checking out real soon. Sure, guaranteed. And we we see just as many people who are checking out this planet, yeah, because of not moving is because of some disease, like cancer or absolute or whatever. It’s like, you, you, you, you know, have somebody, I don’t want somebody taking care of me when I get older. I’m

Speaker 1 55:49
not moving or profound. There’s a study a couple years ago, I’m a gerontologist that teach courses in gerontology at UCLA. And one of the things we harp on a lot, is that sedentary lifestyle, which used to be defined for elders is less than 5000 steps a day now it’s defined as less than 7000 steps a day. Less than that produces as many health risks cardiovascular health risks as smoking a pack of cigarettes a day. So yeah, we have control over this. I mean, Dr.

Speaker 3 56:16
Dr. Andy Galpin, they just finished up some study over in Sweden, and they found out that the three correlates the three things that left gave us not only longevity of life, the quality, quality, right? We’re VOD two, Max. Okay, not getting below. I believe it’s 22 and a half. Okay. So if your VO two Max drops below 22 and a half liters. Okay, you’re done. lean tissue mass. Okay. In the legs. Yep. And the ability to stand up.

Speaker 1 56:48
Yeah, that’s another Gerontology thing. Yeah. Classic gerontological sort of, you know, if you can do one assessment, dermatologically give somebody a chair without arms, have them sit in it, and have them lift up, stand up without using their arms. Yeah, if the quads are strong enough and balanced enough to lift you up off a chair without using your arms. Your body’s probably not aging that dramatically. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 57:08
So I mean, just going back to like these things, I think movement is a big, like, just starting huge. Having a movement practice is huge. That means doing things that require functional movement, not just the same things every day, every you know, day in day out. I think CrossFit has done a phenomenal job with with that, you know, is introducing what functional movement can be and changing that around varying it around you know, and understanding that stuff and I honestly I think a positive mental attitude on the entire thing. Okay, is absolutely 100% Unequivocally going to keep you there. Great.

Speaker 1 57:46
I think that’s wonderful advice when we stop there, folks, but if our listeners and viewers are interested in finding more about you your programs or companies your philosophies on life, where can they find you? Where should they hunt you down?

Speaker 2 57:59
Yeah, well, you can find both of us at power speed endurance, just building that bad boy up.com And then yeah, Brian is SPT life as well they’re doing experiences but yeah, on both either channels one of them’s more of the programming sport focused one trying to bring health back into sport. We’re gonna We’re we’ll we’ll probably have some talks after this. But yeah, bringing in more of the mindset of of endurance sports and helping, you know, athletes that way but and then SPT expertise, lifestyle.

Unknown Speaker 58:38
Now unpack X BT for me for the acronym, but

Speaker 3 58:41
extreme performance training. Okay, so you’re looking at something that might, you know, like, inevitably can become extreme? Because if you start from that small level, yep. So we’ve introduced a lot of the water Waterman training, then Laird has done over the years, which is in a pool with dumbbells. This so there’s a lot of hypoxic work, but it’s work.

Unknown Speaker 59:02
It’s sick meetings.

Speaker 3 59:04
You’re holding your breath, you know, you’ve got to but you’re underwater working with dumbbells. So what

Speaker 1 59:09
are the benefits that have a slight follow up question, but what are the benefits for hypoxia? What’s What’s the theory there? There,

Speaker 3 59:15
I mean, think of think of a swimmer getting fitter throughout a season, like their their ability to for co2 retention and ability to absorb co2 gets greater and greater and greater interesting. Most a lot of people including like, sympathetic dominant people are very, very, they are not co2 tolerant. And so they become in the ability to actually get more oxygen into the tissue. So you can there’s studies that show hypoxic training we’ll get we’ll have kind of like, we’ll get more of an EPO like response and then in the tissue, you know, the body will create more hematocrit hemoglobin out of it. We do a lot of heat transfer

Speaker 2 59:53
apart but for I mean, all the expertise Yeah, I think there’s the measurable stress response. Yeah, yeah. Um, that you know, hold it hold the weight. Yeah, water. Yeah. Yeah, sure. Here’s

Speaker 3 1:00:06
a couple of 30 pound dumbbells and we’re gonna sit, put you in a 12 foot deep pool interesting. And you know, you drop down the bottom and there you are. And you’re like, Well, I’m pretty deep right now. And then you’re going to run across or you’re gonna swim across, you’re going to do something great, you know, whatever. It builds a confidence that really isn’t there as well as absorbing. I’ve never seen anything in my life and I swam competitively for 20 years. So I swam laps, I’d been involved in a lot of swimming stuff. Yeah, I’ve never seen anything build confidence in the pool for people better than what this water yeah, and water in general. So we do that we do a lot of heat and ice therapy stuff for the recovery aspects and for the adaptation aspects of it. So we’re getting a lot of the stress responses out of that stuff, but But teaching people how to deal with that. And then there are things like the gym training, the stuff we do where we apply method to it like Hey, why are we in the gym squatting? Well, right you’re gonna need to squat the rest of your life Right? Exactly. Okay. You know, the beach workout stuff. We do. There’s just a lot around lifestyle and we get people to go out and you know, do more surfing, paddle sports, climbing mountains, get into stuff get into nature. Interesting.

Speaker 1 1:01:17
Yeah, the hypoxic stuff caught my attention. I have a client, who’s a sort of profoundly impaired developmental kid. Yeah, who has when I met her, she was having two or 300 seizures per hour. Oh, now she’s down about 50 or 60 per hour through neurofeedback. But recently, her mom’s are working with her on this carbon dioxide re breathing system, which seems to provoke a developmental challenge that improves seizure status, a lot of these really profoundly impaired brains. There’s something about this co2 tolerance, maybe the EPO upregulation that you’re describing? Yeah, I mean, I don’t know the neuroscience here, myself all that well. But it sounds like we’re actually you know, from a impaired individual as well as at peak performance athlete. Yeah. Well, something similar being tapped into my

Speaker 3 1:01:59
theory, our theory has always been is that if an elite level athletes doing it, a child should be able to do it. If a child can’t do it, an elite level athlete can do it interesting. And they’re just fun and

Speaker 1 1:02:10
we both congruent with with 100 be having a body 100%. Great. Well, that’s a bit of a mic drop moment. So folks, thanks for listening to another episode of headfirst with Dr. Hill. Thank you to my guests, Brian and Aaron Mackenzie. And I think we’re going back to peak brain now and talking about your brains but we’ll do that off air folks. So thanks so much for being part of the show. Thank you for having I’d love to come out and see you guys Newport Beach yeah soon, semana. Thank you. Well,


Brian Mackenzie

Brian Mackenzie is a human performance and movement specialist. He has participated in Ironman (Canada 2004), and has run the Western States 100 and the Angeles Crest 100 mile endurance runs. He co-authored the books Power Speed Endurance, and The New York Times Best Seller UnBreakable Runner.  

Erin, a two-time Olympic Gold Medalist in rowing (W8+) from the 2008 and 2012 Olympic Games, boasts a remarkable record of podium finishes at every World Championship rowing competition she participated in. Her achievements include securing a total of six Gold Medals and two Bronze Medals. Erin played a pivotal role in the two-time NCAA Championship Cal Women’s Crew in 2005 and 2006 and contributed significantly as a core member of the USRowing National Team for six consecutive years.