Dr. Andrew Hill, the founder of Peak Brain Institute, reunites with Jay Gunkelman, renowned for interpreting over 500,000 EEGs, and Pete Jansons on the NeuroNoodle Neurofeedback Podcast to discuss Dr. Hill’s recent endeavors since his last appearance on the show.

Speaker 1 0:00
Welcome to neuro noodles Neurofeedback neuro psychology podcast featuring tech legend Jake Dunkleman. He is the man who has read well over a half a million brain scans. Our goal is provide information and promote options for better mental health. The neuro needle podcast is supported by listeners and businesses just like you like our gold supporter, the seventh annual SUPER BRAIN summit at Bradley University and our silver supporter mind media. Join us at the seventh annual SUPER BRAIN summit at Bradley University Center for Collaborative brain research. It’s featuring speaker Dr. Mary Frances O’Connor. She’s the author of the grieving brain the surprising science of how we learn from our love and loss. If you want to get more information regarding registration, contacted Glenn Porter she’s at g h o w AR T r@bradley.edu or call her at 309677 3900 If you want more information regarding programming, you can contact Dr. Laurie Russell shape and herself at 309-677-3186 or email la are@bradley.edu My media.com Get the latest EEG and Neurofeedback technology from my media dad calm. Their semi Dry Sensor camp is a wonder to see and their EEG amplifiers have been trusted in the field for decades. Their Neurofeedback and cue EEG courses will get you up to speed in no time. Visit mine media dad calm now. Not factor J not Dr. J. Oh, that’s true. Yeah, that check J

Unknown Speaker 1:45

Speaker 1 1:46
Oh, come on. Dr. J can play basketball and become a doctor. Sure I’m gonna read a gazillion brain scans. Now,

Speaker 2 1:55
but I have to be correct in that. You can see the problem if there was a misunderstanding about, yeah,

Speaker 3 2:05
I have to do the same thing with regards to clinical stuff. Folks often want me to use diagnostic language, or they want to understand that and I’m sort of it’s part of our, the way we educate the way we frame what we do with our value proposition for our clients is providing education and agency not diagnostic expertise. So I joked when our clients find us, you know, we teach them to become experts, instead of having to be the right expert, the next person has the answer, we can transfer some of that to them so they can go forward with it.

Speaker 2 2:34
I’ve always had the luxury of working along with the neurologist or electroencephalography is typically and then that’s been very freeing, obviously, you can call something what it is and not have to kind of work around and a diagnostic call with the credential as a cosign, so it worked really well for me.

Speaker 3 3:03
So I asked, though, to what extent did you I mean, you’ve been doing EEG, and clinically EEG as a clinical field, how long have you been involved with EEG?

Speaker 2 3:13
Well, I had my first laboratory in 1972.

Speaker 3 3:17
So almost as long as I’ve been alive, you’ve been picking up brain signals professionally.

Speaker 2 3:22
I played around with EEG amps and stuff in the at university at the North Dakota State University in Fargo. Go Bison, you know, gives you the boards and all you but the state hospital in Jamestown basically gave us space and funding and we built our own amps in 1972 What Neurofeedback amp could Dubai. Yeah. Oh, it was it. The origin has zero cross detector, which couldn’t see anything but the tower of frequency. It was a terrible app, you know, it was, you know, it has enough space inside the case to carry lunch. But it was it was it but but if you couldn’t really do real EEG with it. And the state hospital had a big old grasp model six, which wasn’t like current current, but it was still quite functional. So you know, we had some interesting times three years, I ran that lab and then came out to California. And then I after one year of making equipment and finding that you could go broke making equipment for people last year, I decided that the search service and the field always has a need for service. So I looked I got a job in the busiest EEG lab in the world in San Francisco. So, and over 100 a day, a minimum day was 100 D jeans. Wow. And they came in from over 400 hospitals across the US offer satellite and through phone systems. And so 500,000 e G’s later, as a, that’s calculated only 100 a day and there were days we topped 200. But sure, you know, just 100 a day makes for an easy calculation. So, so I had that as a background, BS degree from North Dakota State University where they know a lot about BS, you know, so well, but, you know, just basically the depth of visual exposure to the waveforms and, and the training with John Hughes and the Gibbs and Charlie Yeager and Dr. Cher, and then very, very high level EEG interpretation and, and, you know, density of exposure. I remember an email chat lists online, which I was I had to kind of step away from those because I, I wouldn’t let go of some, some conversations that didn’t make sense. So

Unknown Speaker 6:29
yeah, now there’s some vitriol on those.

Speaker 2 6:32
At that point, I just, you know, that wasn’t me. So I just have to just put doing that. I remember somebody with an email something about a salamanders

Speaker 3 6:42
Oh, that was probably Yeah. I was very vocal on this really lists. And

Speaker 2 6:46
you interchange with me and asked about grad schools where he could do a Neurofeedback program without getting kicked out of the university, you know, and I suggested Aaron Seidel at UCLA for brain lateralization labs. So I remember you back before you were the you that you are now you know, that’s right. 3025 30

Speaker 3 7:13
years, that was a while ago. Exactly. Yeah,

Speaker 2 7:17
I could tell you a sharp guy on the email list you’re you are also one to try to drill down and you know, ask the kind of the show me the data sort of approach to, to some of the posts

Speaker 3 7:35
will mean back then there was I really described that that time in the field of Neurofeedback as a bunch of blind men and elephants you know, everyone’s describing something and and proclaiming truth about Mars as the way and being indirect. Yours can’t work. This is how to do neurofeedback. This is how it works. People arguing back then about does sight on the head matter does frequency matter? This is why my part of my dissertation work was to compare sites and frequencies active and sham to this like put a stake in that question once and for all. Yes, it matters. So here it is. It’s proven.

Speaker 2 8:11
And Aaron’s idols brain lateralization lab was the perfect spot to have done where dichotic listening tests and things that were available for for analysis that you know, normal labs don’t think like that, you know, so yeah, it

Speaker 3 8:28
also dovetailed I mean, I was trained to do Neurofeedback before grad school by Dr. Larry Hirschberg in Providence. Yeah, I don’t know, Larry, right. Right. Great in the field, recently retired. But Larry had a big long history focused on developmental trajectory stuff, autism and other types of developmental stuff with kids primarily. And I was Dr. Hertzberg was trained in this sort of arousal model of neurofeedback, that sort of, I think, came out of my perspective, sort of from the author’s initially and some that eg law was called neuro cybernetics. Or right, the arousal model. And when I took the Arousa model, which was heavily relevant to spectrum development, and kids and ADHD and things, but I took that and then I went into a lateral rally lab. And I got my head around unintended lateral reality and left and right and I started to think about how we use you know, bait in the left and SMR on the right and frequency specific hemisphere differences. And some of the clinical law are the rules the paintbrush, as we’ve been taught to you started to coalesce. So, I really, I sat through I also had the luxury of sitting through. I’m going to say it’s a luxury that I did it twice, but I took two I took the course twice with Arnie shy Bell neuroanatomy because I didn’t pass the first time. It was really hard, you know, medical student level neuroanatomy and I went through it and almost, you know, got it and didn’t quite get it and did it again and really sunk in you The mix of that like old school arousal model, the ladder reality model that doctors Idelle helped really instill. I mean, a lot of the tools that I use in my research on brains in general on neurofeedback, I use something called the land the lateralized attention network task, which is a lateralized version of Dr. Posner’s Mike Posner’s attention network task. So you’re it’s a flanker task, you’re trying to predict the direction of an arrow, you know, say it’s up or down or left or right. And there’s some flankers and distractors nearby, try to predict something or judge something with distractors that are incongruent to it or in conflict to it creates an executive conflict, which is a sort of prefrontal kind of thing. And Dr. Seidel took the posters, and ANC, which was a horizontal line of arrows, flipped it vertically, made it in both hemispheres and then made an attack this dis scope, so a very rapid presentation. And you can constrain the response hand by visual field and now you can actually test attention systems and each hemisphere separately. So I started to think about the brain very differently once I got the ability to dig in and test modular resources. And you know, this was dovetailing with I was working, of course, a little bit in that lab with Dr. Jack Johnstone, a dear friend of both of ours who passed on a few years ago, also a great EEG,

Speaker 2 11:17
my business partner, but so yeah. And

Speaker 3 11:22
so Jack was teaching me a lot about this sort of endo phenotype perspective on brains and EEG. And, you know, I was, that was obviously our, that was you, and Jack and joy, right, that that first paper, I think, yeah. 2005 and phenotype car clinical characterization of taxation, clinical databases. Yeah,

Speaker 2 11:42
I was talking about failure modes in the brain that were common, that we hadn’t put together that they were probably endo phenotypic until 2005. But for about four or five years, before that, I had done the reverse look at the 500,000. Or what I could recall of them, you know, I don’t have the artificial intelligence, I just have this old skin version, you know, so. But having looked at that, these were the common patterns that I saw. And having hung out in clinical settings, what were the treatments that matched up with them, because if you had the same endo phenotype, you got the same treatment approach, not the DSM didn’t make any frequent sensitive, you know, obviously, it’s not valid anyway. So we didn’t really drive ourselves for treatment decisions based on the DSM, we use the EEG to guide us and, and kind of across the DSM, if you had the same EEG pattern, you got the same treatment, basically. So that’s what we published in the 2005. With the insight that it was likely and phenotypic that were two of the 11 patterns that were known genetic correlates. Since then, obviously, the others have been filled in. So there wasn’t a bad guess, you know,

Speaker 3 13:20
it absolutely wasn’t. And, I mean, I struggle with endo phenotypes and phenotypes in general as a as a thing that I work with every single day. And this is sort of getting to something I’ve started to ask a minute ago, 50 plus years working with the EEG. I assume most of that almost all of that is with the lens with the perspective of Clinical Pathology, a typicality problems being presented. When I look at endo phenotypes, you know, patterns that exist in the EEG across people, I find there are phenotypes that exist that aren’t the clinical ones necessarily, in fact,

Speaker 2 13:59
a phenotype the, the proportionality of the phenotypes, expression is whether you’re normal, or clinical, you know, each phenotype there is the phenotypes exist in normal people, and clinical people, the same phenotype phenotypes is just more severely expressed. And that it’s an easy you reduce the proportionality of money Mahalanobis distance of the three dimensional data, scatter, multivariate analysis. So if you have less divergence, your normal if you have more divergence within that pattern, your clinical and that, that’s an easy one to show. That

Speaker 3 14:49
sort of opens the door for us here, right? Because we all have brains that are weird, good job, be weird, like all of us are rather atypical. And when you show someone there are a typicality their their endophenotypes their anterior cingulate being extra hot, would be perceptive and intrusive and obsessive. Or it could be that they’re a highly effective CEO who’s highly organized and loves their mind, on the back midline could be a trauma response, or could be a very effective lifeguard, who’s heavily skilled at it and doesn’t seem to be threatened or are activated by their threat response stuff. So that I that I struggle with day to day because I work with clients with acute clinical classic stuff, and I work with clients that are the highest performers squeezing the juice out of life and everything in between. And I find the same patterns in a person that walks in with no problems. Yeah, as well as somebody who’s got severe dysregulation. And it’s not a question of here’s a thing that’s wrong with you. It says, here’s a thing, it’s different in you. Would you like to work on it? Does it make sense to is it valid? Because trying to interpret phenotypes? Yes, the electricity pattern, the thing we can measure the statistical thing that’s hard to, you know, clean away in some ways still sticks up. Those things don’t always mean mean interesting things. A deviation

Speaker 2 16:06
could be abnormal. Could be could be a compensatory mechanism. And it could be a unique outlier state that has a special skill. And drug Furthermore, and in South Africa is a brilliant guy. I’ve known him for a long, long time. I won’t embarrass him number. But he works with what you would consider extreme athletes. Who runs those things that run over to mountain ranges for six days? Or you know those crazy races? Who rose across the frickin Atlantic in a boat by themselves? These are his clients. Yeah. And don’t you know that they have a singular that’s just crazy. A lot of if they didn’t, how the hell would they stay on task for those

Speaker 1 17:08
Dr. Hill I’m gonna put a link to our put a link right here to the last show that we did with you. But a couple years ago, what is gone on with you since then I see that you’re opening up new locations. I see you have a moniker The Magic Man. And you some

Speaker 3 17:27
what some podcaster that was her. That was her experience her her judgment after working through it. I mean, a lot of people have this experience of getting agency of understanding themselves a lot more after digging into looking at themselves. And that’s that’s what people find magical. And this is also my sort of frustration in the field of neurofeedback. It’s all rather magical, and none of its any really more mysterious than anything else. There is no magic box in neurofeedback, there is no best particular approach. There’s understanding of the science and the physiology and gentle shaping and moving it but nobody has like the magic that there’s no mystery tradition here that you have to be initiated into, to really start digging in and only the right particular church will get it to you. It’s not how this stuff exists. So we’ve been expanding peak Brain Institute, which is really focused on a mix of classic Neurofeedback and peak performance stuff. We have four offices now in the US and we’re opening up as well in Europe. So in the US, we have New York City, which just expanded St. Louis, LA and Orange County, California each have offices. And then we’re in LA, we’re in London now to sell stock. What do you keep? How do you keep control of all of that? Well, I have a perspective on brain training that is not a therapist and a lot of my colleagues who my mentors, people have taught me there, they’re mostly therapists, and they tend to have a roster of clients of patients that are 20 clients 30 clients and they see them for a mix of therapy and Neurofeedback typically, and almost everyone I know in the field has a population of interest because they started off doing autism or eating disorders or anxiety or trauma, and then discovered Neurofeedback as a lovely tool set, or they started to specialize because of the change, they could help shepherd in a particular area, they really found it fulfilling. I don’t do that piece of it. I don’t narrowly niche down and I also don’t work in the role of a therapist for you. So without being a therapist, without working to have to create the complete transference container, that safety container where you’re sort of allowing a therapist to create some you know some agency and re examine things and provide a mixed perspective that is the therapeutic process to sort of unlearn and relearn things. That’s a pretty vulnerable place to be and it takes a lot of management federal boundaries, and there is this transference. This this relationship you develop with the person and their agency and deep brain instead operates like a bunch of personal trainers and coaches. We’re here to thrust agency back upon you, and teach you how your brain works. So, you know, we see about 10 times as many clients I think because as the average Neurofeedback solo practitioner, and we do that because I teach people to read their brain maps, we don’t write these long exhaustive, here’s a bunch of labels. And here’s things that could be true about you. Diagnostic level reports, we instead say, oh, cool data, CPT brain maps, let’s dig in. Let’s look at some stuff. Let’s teach you the neurocognitive exercise of putting physiology behavior in contrast, and seeing what’s outlined about your resources, teach you how this stuff works. And okay, there’s your brain when you want to do and so we can take the stuff that is clinical when it exists, executive function stuff, anxiety features, sleep, post COVID, brain fog, seizures, migraines, whatever. And you can work on those things from a resource perspective, if I talk to you about your anterior cingulate, and its tendency, perhaps to perceive rate being plausible based on your maps, you’re like, Oh, my God, yes. Actually, somebody gave me an OCD diagnosis. Oh, wow. I’m sorry. You deal with that? It’s so annoying. Here’s the physiology probably. Would you like to work on that? So you know, I don’t have to deny other people’s diagnostic language, but I’m not really I don’t really care if you’re a high powered CEO, who’s mostly good at hyper focusing, but can’t turn it off and be nice to your partner when you get home. Or if you’re like somebody who’s compulsively handwashing or somebody who just has a song stuck in your head, if you tend to per separate, and the the anterior cingulate is stuck for you, well, that’s true for you, you know, you know how you feel. So you can now learn the physiology take control of it, and that that thrusting of agency that educational that piercing that mystery a little bit, by showing someone their brain map, I think really helps to offload in some ways some of the burden of doing Neurofeedback traditionally, I mean, a lot of therapists struggle to continue to maintain a perspective on how their clients brains are changing. clients aren’t super compliant with sleep surveys and personal inventories and things day to day, you’ve spent a lot of time catching up on that. Sort of a bug of neurofeedback. And we made it a feature, we teach you to do neurofeedback, if you’re a client, and about 80% of our clients work from home with equipment, and we teach you to do it. And we have live support staff and life coaches that jump on and help you and teach you and suggest new things. But the big benefit even before folks do Neurofeedback with us, especially for newer in office is that we provide this sort of membership model for brain mapping. So people pay one time, and they come throughout the year and learn to use mapping and attention testing as a tool. So I’m in California with offices in New York, you know, cannabis is legal in those states, I can’t tell you the number of maps, I’ve seen pre and post cannabis, or Adderall or caffeine, or biohackers, you know, looking at their different Newtopia nootropic stacks, examining how their cognitive stuff works, or folks that have gotten COVID and have post COVID examining the degree of brain fog or the post concussion stuff that got reactivated by their new ski trip, when you can see this stuff, and you can see it shift in numbers. And you can relate it to how you’re feeling. You can start shifting your relationship with aspects of suffering and places where you aren’t performing. You can be as annoyed and as frustrated as you want to be looking at a broken shoulder on an x ray, you’re probably not going to be ashamed or overwhelmed quite the same way when and you’re like, oh my god, that thing. It’s so annoying. But yeah, don’t tolerate it. Oh, empathy is frustrating. But it’s just your brain. In this case, you can see it you can change it. And I tell people that look, if you see stuff on a cue EEG, QE G’s are hard to interpret a little bit people are weird, but if you see something that is valid for you, right, because you can almost always change something in a dataset. Or it only matters to you if it’s valid, if it really matters to you. But you know, if you see it, you have agency. So that’s that’s sort of our soapbox and that with the network of physical offices, we also do remote programs is creating a different relationship. I think with the field of Neurofeedback because a lot of our clients are not just doing I gotta fix something, but they’re learning to understand themselves and moving through even years sometimes of mapping progressively trying different life interventions doing some Neurofeedback and transforming across a long time hopefully so

Speaker 1 24:35
artificial intelligence is that coming into play the chat GPT Jay and I have been going back and forth over the last couple of weeks. Jay is a big proponent of AI

Speaker 3 24:46
oh yeah it’s gonna I mean we’ve we’ve just discovered fire we don’t I don’t think we quite know yet. What it can do. All we know is it can burn things we don’t we don’t know yet to cook gourmet meals like we’re at that level. Oh my God. Someone got burned. Yeah, but you Peking duck, like there’s a whole other end of the use of the technology we have to get to as it elaborates. Of course, the big constraint here is that these, especially natural language model, or deep, deep language model systems are only really, really good when they are constrained very, very narrowly in the questions and are training on a very narrow data set. So to get them to do the skilled stuff we do is going to take a minute, because the amount of judgments you have to capture and then train the system on and datasets you have to provide for the subsequent training are a little bit you know, there’s some stuff that has to happen first, but I’ve got a database of 5000 clients more, I forgot what I put the new charting system in that I last use, but it’s it captures, peak brain peak brain, the current entities around for seven and a half years, I have six years of decision making captured every protocol, all the surveys, every i Every tension test every brain map, in this massive data set. Now if I can figure out how to constrain chat GPT, four or five, whatever, auto GPT, I can sort of say, look, here’s the questions we want to ask, here’s the ways we’ve answered in the past, I think going back to the old school machine learning of training models, model fitting, that’s going to come together with the amazing natural language stuff and the inferential reasoning. And the genetic learning where you can tell it to learn to do stuff and give it very imprecise and have it do federated GPT is where it sends other GPT is out to do stuff. Amazing. But we’re going to need the other piece of it, which is the old school machine learning model fitting the learning and intelligence against the domain expertise we already have. You can’t take domain expertise and put it in these models. That’s the big issue. HIPAA.

Speaker 1 26:54
Do you think that your five, live chat CPT is open source? Okay. Could there be an open source? I know there’s a few people that are doing it. But all the scans that you do you take the identifiers off and you put it in one place, and everybody has access to it? Do you think we can be organized to figure out where somebody doesn’t? I know, everybody wants to make a profit. Everybody wants to be proprietary, but 500,000 is bigger than 5000. Right? Yeah, no,

Speaker 3 27:22
I mean, sure. Although I bet j would agree you don’t need 500,000. To approach normal variability, you need about 10 to 100,000, depending what you’re looking at. So sure, absolutely. And we’re doing that basic science question thing you’re asking that’s asking about science about how brains work that’s useful. But I think the exciting thing is the next step. And that’s the intelligent agent that is a model of you that in fact mentions

Speaker 2 27:48
it probably would need somewhere around 500,000, do you think I’ll type you don’t need it as one group you needed, randomized into two groups so that you can validate what you find in one group independently on the second group, that without that validation step, you could be up a box canyon and not be aware of it. So the one of the difficulties in neurosciences replicability? Yeah, and we’ve got to provide that. And you’re right about 100, maybe 200,000, something such as that may be sufficient to generally characterize the broad distribution, but categorization within that as clinical categorization, epilepsy, bipolar, you know, the clinical observations, which are, some of which are quite valid in and the epilepsy spectrum is, I think, a concept that needs to be included because autism and ATD, and, you know, the high percentage of epileptiform content we see in these clinical groups. So the, the few 100,000 can characterize the normal distribution fairly well. But the clinical clusters are going to have to be identified. That’s, that’s some hand holding of the algorithm. Some management basically, but once you’ve got that done, once you’ve got that done one time, you have to, you have to run that on your independent sample and, and validated space. Yeah. Join

Speaker 1 29:49
us at the seventh annual SUPER BRAIN summit at Bradley University Center for Collaborative brain research. It’s featuring speaker Dr. Mary Frances O’Connor, she’s The author of the grieving brain the surprising science of how we learn from our love and loss, if you want to get more information regarding registration, contact Glenn who Artur she’s at g h o w AR t r@bradley.edu, or call her at 309677 3900. If you want more information regarding programming, you can contact Dr. Laurie Russell shaping herself at 309-677-3186 or email la are@bradley.edu.

Speaker 3 30:33
One of the ideas I have around that and part of where I’m getting my 10,000 200,000 number from is I think we can take the data model conceptual model of qv EG, and make it an added dimension of time into it. So if we had wellness trackers for the brain, where some people are tracking their sleep distress, their seizures, their migraines, their mood, how angry their mother in law made them, whatever the drinking their exercise, and we have a longitudinal set of variability per person, with some snapshots against their normal variability within one person. Now cue EEG has a different metric, I believe that amount of intra individual variability capture with context will take that number of tuna 1000. And cut it down to I think the power analysis will show that it’s like 20,000. Now, in terms of wild type, because you’re getting, you’re getting the seizure incidence that happens every so often across six weeks, you’re getting the recurrent migraine patterns, and there’s gonna be a lot more contextual data, I think, we will be able to reduce the need to keep QE G’s clean, I want them to walk in, sit down, do a brain map walk out and then okay, they reported to having caffeine before and they smoke weed last night. Oh, and they have some sort of like, you know, bits and baths speculated some of the anxiety stuff, the reporting. Okay, great. So now with this atypical characterization, now we can have a sort of regression mean through a set of normal typical data or, or examine the variants around human populations. But with the context of how people themselves vary, which is a thing we actually have to sort of control out and cue EEG come in the morning, no caffeine, not super tight, you know, there’s a bunch of constraints to get valid EEG data now. And I think we’re going to be able to, to eliminate those at some point and have fatigued and stressed and medicated EEG and be able to look right through that and make judgments that’s coming.

Speaker 1 32:27
How do we get more more data? If you have 5000? We need 100,000, whatever the number is, you think it’s possible to get everybody together and say, All right, we’ll make our own, we’ll spend 600 bucks like Stanford make our own AI or, and?

Speaker 3 32:42
Well, it’s coming. I’m sure someone’s already doing it. Yeah, again, the thing that I met

Speaker 2 32:50
at Stanford, actually separated from Stanford, to a private entity that was funded. And they’re doing an AI scrubbing crank to replace psychiatry with, you know, biomarkers and that Stanford gave him 37,000 of the EGS that were already cleaned up and digitized. And the problem was, these are all epilepsy cases and several apathy cases, because that’s what you use the EEG for clinically. So that the data is not sufficient to characterize

Speaker 3 33:29
this, we need to think about brains as normal variability. And we need to be examining our brains just like we look at our lipid panels, you know, it’s just a part of your physiology that you manage, it’s not so much about pathology is my take on it. But

Speaker 1 33:42
the right blood pressure, I mean, I just got back from my physical it’s like, you know, here’s the here’s the baseline it compare over the years, people have to get in that frame of mind, pardon the pun that you know, above your neck, you have to keep an eye on what’s going on there as well. You

Speaker 3 33:59
can’t feel it ironically. So, you know,

Unknown Speaker 34:02
well, insurance doesn’t pay that’s,

Speaker 2 34:04
I don’t even let them test me anymore. People that are on steroids and stuff. So Oh, yeah. Show me a norm that I’m appropriate. You know. So, yeah. Wouldn’t

Speaker 3 34:19
you find it useful? Like if you had a data point that was distorted by your experience or suffering some medication, etc, you would understand how that data point being distorted what it meant, like it would provide agency for you as somebody who’s educated can interpret subtle data. Why don’t we all have that capability? There’s a

Speaker 2 34:38
reason that I’ve lasted over 30 years, and they have an average life expectancy of less than 10. For no pituitary. You know, what’s the reason? It’s difficult to stay alive? To Jerry, I’ll tell you that.

Speaker 3 34:53
I didn’t hear both anterior and posterior pituitary.

Unknown Speaker 34:57
The whole thing was gone.

Speaker 3 35:00
Wow. So your brain Yeah, my poor timing.

Speaker 2 35:04
I kind of do Doctor admit that they have a clean clipboard nothing on it and insert. And Mr. Go, you know the choke on the last name? What are you here for? Well renew my meds, well, what are you on? I start to list my meds and they about five minutes down the list. They said, Well, what do you have? And this is not what I have. It’s what I don’t have. I don’t have a pituitary, and the clipboard and the jaw drop at about the same time that this Yeah, they’re linked together somehow some reflex? I don’t know where it is. But what do I do for you renew my meds? And you might want to find the specialist who might know what to do for me, but they don’t really exist in neuro oncologist. Yeah, neuro endocrinologist that are able to do better than what I’ve been doing don’t exist. So that doing what they do, you have a half a chance of living 10 years, you know, so Well,

Speaker 3 36:04
I can’t imagine is a large practice space for those doctors to operate in, in in this particular complaint. So I

Speaker 2 36:10
take my medications, essentially all PRN. And these are not meds that are prescribed PRM steroids and stuff. But you know that I was complying perfectly with the prescriptions and they couldn’t get normal blood levels. And I told them well, let me take them the way I want. And I give you normal blood levels. They said well, there’s no way for you to tell your cortisol level of hydrocortisone steroids that you’re eating. I said well yes there is. You know, I’ve damaged myself over the years I cut these fingers off and had them sewn back on I’ve done a risk this at six surgeries got bad knees broken back twice. busted up ribs. I’m a total freakin mess. When I feel pain in all of those, I’m not on steroids and inflammatory stuff. Yeah. And if I can’t feel any of them, now I have earned the right to feel some pain. So if I can’t feel any of them, I’m on too much steroid. And I don’t have a normal life I used to fly internationally or I was sitting at home on the computer for three four weeks at a time. So I didn’t have a normal lifestyle. And here you are your pituitary. If you change the level of life stress shifts the levels around the cortisol level will shift based on what is what’s needed as an anti inflammatory for yourself and to control your immune system and blood sugar and circadian and yeah, and with no no, it could you could slam it with doses a couple of times a day. Standard doses didn’t match up with a non standard life. So as soon as I started taking a PRM I gave them neural blood levels and then they couldn’t you know understand the risk is there okay take it however you want but you know don’t tell don’t tell anybody if I’ve made it 30 years way past any estimate that they would have given

Speaker 3 38:27
Well, we’re certainly super glad you’ve been continuing to share your your your Janus with it with with us all.

Speaker 2 38:34
So I’m I’m still having too much fun to pass. That’s all. That’s great.

Speaker 1 38:40
The devil doesn’t want you. So Dr. Hill I hear you got some new podcast episodes coming up with what you got cooking.

Speaker 3 38:49
Yeah, we have some new podcast episodes. I had a podcast called headfirst with Dr. Hill that’s available on all the podcast places apple and YouTube etc. And it’s a really cool look in the corner great. And headfirst, we sort of went fallow during the pandemic, we reduced our we change our office a lot, you know, pre pandemic, we were sort of this really vibrant seven day a week, 12 hour day gym with a couple locations. And now we are more locations but they’re smaller and 80% of our clients work from home. So it’s got this very different kind of phenomena attached to it in terms of how clients work with us. But as we’re starting to do more with meditation groups and client outreach and stitching together as a worldwide network of both gyms and clients, we’re relaunching podcasts and things like that. So, headfirst Dr. Hill will be I think the new episodes will start rolling out next month. We have a couple of big guests. I think Wim Hof is one of our first guests coming out as as a as a show we’re producing right now and I think it’d be a weekly podcast. Okay, which to all the podcast places. So, folks, please subscribe. You can check me out at Andrew Hill, PhD. You can check out peak brain at peak brain LA. And I think my YouTube is just Dr. Hill, Dr. H, I ll so come check us out.

Speaker 1 40:07
What what are people wanting to consume nowadays? What do they want to know?

Speaker 3 40:13
Yeah, I find the stuff that people want to know is always very personal, and it tends to constellate are on the same types of phenomena. I mean, this is sort of getting back to the idea that if we understand ourselves, we can take more control when Jay has a strategy with managing his cortisol that works for him because he understands it adequately. And he managed to do better than most people better than doctors do in this instance. And I find people when they understand that their alpha waves are running slow, and that’s why they have word finding issues, it’s probably not aging at 55. Oh, your alpha speeds are all over the place and your deltas, you’re not sleeping great. And you’re having speed of processing. So they often go, oh, okay, wait a minute, that’s happening. So when we start to distill things down to how some individual person’s brain works, not just like the phenotypes cohere in the data sets from our scientific and clinical perspective, but the experience is start to come here for individuals, they start understanding how their their sleep management, or lack thereof is impacting them, or they’re eating before bed is impacting them, or they’re working night shift throws them off, or they’re, you know, ski vacations, they keep getting concussed. And I find people start to really become laser focused on stuff that they sort of already know. But becomes this. You know, how do I change that? How do I make change? Can I kind of go after that? I also find people are often a little bit scared until they realize that brain mapping is this tool. They’re often loud, I want to know, I can’t, but the one way you can change Oh, I can change it. Okay, I want to know. So people generally want to know, whatever it is they suffer from the most sleep stress or attention are often big foundational things that they’re curious about, oh, my, I’m different, I’m unique in this way, can you help me take control of it is often how people leave their investigation. So your model

Speaker 2 42:14
is, is a bit unique, in that you’ve got coaching and general health and wellness, orientation, and kind of an eclectic set of tools, hyperbaric and various. Diet and lots of approaches. And this is not medical office, this is a general health and wellness and coaching. Right. And it’s not a clinical model. But it’s it’s a model that essentially coaches and coaxes the person in in a direction that may be helpful for them.

Speaker 3 43:01
Yeah, we thrust agency behind you and teach you what you might want to do and give you best practices and then check back with you we don’t, you know, give you the answer, necessarily.

Speaker 2 43:11
It’s probably a good idea to have a affiliated medical associate that can end up handling the findings that will obviously come up where you see a dramatic clinical abnormality in the EEG, which you can’t call because it’s not your you don’t have that big on a hat, you know. So having a doc on at your beck and call to, to handle cases like that, is is quite useful.

Speaker 3 43:51
And we generally find we have to navigate non, you know, coaching type things for a lot of people. And that may mean we’re working with someone Mr. ologists, and providing data or we’re working with some therapists to helping them look at an attention test. And even though we’re not medical, and we don’t have that clinical perspective, that psychological don’t call it necessarily, you know, legal and medical oversight. We do refer out to those sorts of things. If we see things that are unusual, or we think, you know, I can’t tell you the number of people that I send out to get had their neck image in like a Nuka practice because they’ve had a car accident. You know, if there’s musculoskeletal things, I can’t diagnose them for you. But I can say, Oh, hey, I think you may be experiencing something that a provider in this landscape really needs to take a check. Look at. Here’s somebody and we have those relationships in all of our physical offices. You know, we have a few doctors, a few, you know, specialists in each area. But yeah, it is something we manage. And one of the ways I’ve been able to get away from having to manage that is because people often find neurofeedback, it’s a niche. So they often find it late in their experience of soccer, addressing their goals. So by the time I’ve gotten somebody with is a severe trauma history or a lot of seizures or major autism, they have a deeply skilled relationship with this clinical stuff. And they know how they know how their meds work, and they have their team and they have, you know, kind of over there talk therapy or not or whatever. And it’s just like you managing your own medication, PRN people come in, and I’m okay to work with you if you have a clinical diagnosis, but I’m not the clinician for you. So, sometimes it’s a little bit of like the Hey, there’s this, there’s a severity here, I think that you should probably see your doctor for of this flavor. But it’s very

Speaker 2 45:34
similar to what I’ve been doing. And you know, I work with patients that have epilepsy, and I’m not nonreligious, so I can’t treat epilepsy, but I can train somebody who has epilepsy how to operate their brain optimally, and work with the neurologists or epileptologist, who’s managing their case, because I never worked, you know, behind the scenes without their knowledge. Right. And, and at that point, the doctor is managing the, they’re treating the seizures, I’m just teaching to optimize brain function and when the seizures go away, and you know, we’ve got good experience that that’s what’s going to happen, the meds will be pulled because the doctor doesn’t want you on meds if you’re having seizures, and you end up with seizure free medication for you. And we just published another case like that in neuro regulation. The, the patient just graduated with honors from Baylor and she wanted to be able to do lectures about intractable epilepsy and Neurofeedback and, and life outcomes and as a motivational speaker. And she wanted her case to actually be published. So, Rusty Turner, myself, Sue Wilson, the treatment team basically ended up getting it written up in great detail. Medication seizure free for like seven years and now she had she had a division one tennis scholarship. He’s four years dean’s list. And now she’s graduated and has this publication that just came out last month. As as a basically, the validation of her clinical case story basically

Unknown Speaker 47:40
linked to the show, we’ll be right

Speaker 2 47:42
here. And it’s is Isabella is the patient’s name. And her her case was astounding. Actually had a little bit of Neurofeedback in the US before her family moved to Barcelona, where as a young preteen, she started to have intractable seizures and that the EEG done in the United States actually showed the seizure activity in the temporal lobe. The the neurologist and neurosurgeon in Barcelona Wacka remove her right temporal lobe to control the intractable epilepsy. They chose to do Neurofeedback and quit meds, and they were told that that would kill their daughter. And obviously, she’s bloomed really quite well. This one thing to be seizure free med free for seven years. It’s another thing to have graduated with honors, tennis scholarship, so it’s amazing she she didn’t just escape epilepsy, she blooms in a major way, an impressive young lady.

Speaker 3 49:01
That’s wonderful. Because I’ve seen some similar things across the decade or more 22 years I’ve been doing neurofeedback, but in terms of medication management, that I find the same thing that happens antidepressants, anti seizure meds, you sort of bring the floor up to meet the person and then the meds take care of themselves with the doctor and the client. Great. I find I have to be a little bit more pointed with my advice with psychostimulants. And people that use cannabis. Because almost always, somewhere around three to five weeks in a tolerance to stimulants and the tolerance to cannabis gets abolished out of nowhere. And the person’s like, getting three, four or five times the subjective impact suddenly from those drugs. And it can get in the way and cause problems behaviorally or, you know, psychologically like, oh my god, I can’t get off the couch. I’m too stoned or my kid is super irritable, won’t sleep or eat right now. Oh, maybe that Adderall is you know, they need a different dose. Now, essentially. So I sort of warn parents of kids that are taking stimulants, and I want people that are, you know, chronic stoners like, well, you know, look, a couple weeks in, you’re probably gonna start getting potentiate effects as you get more sensitive. So that’s something you may have to manage, maybe make an appointment with your doctor and, you know, ask for a refill that’s got extra amount of half the dose or come up with a strategy for that drug, maybe, because in my experience, you’re probably be very sensitive to these medications. In a few weeks,

Speaker 2 50:30
when your consciousness becomes clear, the effects of these things are notable. When you’re all clouded, it’s hard to spot these things. You know, and as you as you clear people’s consciousness, it’s astounding how sensitive they can be to stuff that they were just absolutely, were oblivious to previously. Yeah, so I’m going to try to get on that if you if you look at the literature, SMR training, for instance, you can look at a visual event related potential, and look at the size of the potential that you’re evoking and get an idea of how much recruitment the visual stimuli is getting. If you do SMR, the size of the visual stimulus jumps up, you’ve removed some somatosensory interference. And so as you control the inner level of noise, you can see signals that you couldn’t see before, you can feel effects that were just part of the background cloud before, but now, they’re obvious.

Speaker 3 51:52
And that’s a plasticity effect to right. There’s the me there’s the motor evoked potential work that shows that one session of SMR creates a much lower threshold of activations create the hand jumping, when you give the brain a little magnetic pulse, certain threshold to activate that, but after a single session, the threshold way reduced. So it’s not just clearing information. It’s making the system more sensitive, more plastic more changeable, I think, in general. So.

Speaker 1 52:16
Dr. Hill Jay, is it true? I’ve heard that the stoners out there the boozers out there, once they’ve done neurofeedback, some people have lost the taste for their drug of their of their choice. Is that true? It is true,

Speaker 3 52:33
not just alcohol and weed people often depending what you’re doing to the brain, people can lose the taste for cravings for sugar as well.

Unknown Speaker 52:40
What hell is happening? Why?

Speaker 2 52:44
As you clear the brain, you don’t need substances. We basically did a research project on 30 Addicted individuals of wide variety of different substances. But we found that there were two primary drive mechanisms towards addiction over arousal, which had three EEG patterns, fast alpha, which is over arousal, low voltage fast, which is over arousal, and beta spindles which are over arousal. If you had over arousal, alpha theta was part of your future as a therapeutic intervention. And the Alpha Theta people when when you get rid of the drive towards the, towards the substance, and you’re exposed to the substance, is quite often something that you have a bad reaction to. There’s no There’s no more reason you’ve taken away the drive in psychology, read the books, you get rid of the drive, you’re supposed to get rid of the behavior associated with the drive, aren’t you? You know, well, if you really get rid of the drive, that’s what happens. The other third of the addicted population had an anterior cingulate drive, obsess not an over arousal, they had an obsessive compulsive drive. And if you if you don’t fix that, you end up with the symptom substitution if they’re clean and sober, they’re gonna find something else to be locked on to but you know, they you can end up getting rid of the drive and at that point, the behavior associated with the addiction goes away. The rat

Speaker 3 54:29
Park example when rat Park is fun the rats play in the park when rat Park is empty. They just do cocaine all day. instead. Yes,

Speaker 2 54:39
and to their detriment. Don’t do drugs until they die. And if you give them an enriched environment, they they have a life as opposed to just do the trial and

Speaker 3 54:51
that’s that’s true for the mechanisms over arousal, impulsivity obsessiveness, but I honestly think it’s a lot simpler than that. Most addictive stuff is driven By learning Neurofeedback changes learning so you can shape the direction you go and change. You’re stuck patterns of reinforcement. Yeah.

Speaker 2 55:08
foundationally the neuroplasticity principle is what allows you to get out of the drive mechanism that you’re being driven towards something with your, after all. Who’s in control? Do we have strings coming up? Is there a master puppeteer up there? Dangling us controlling our behavior? No, we, you know, we’re, we’re, we’re self, we’re autonomic. And we get to name ourselves. We’re self regulating. And sometimes, well, even when we’re not aware of what we’re doing, we’re still doing it ourselves.

Unknown Speaker 55:54
Even within voluntary it’s still self. Yeah.

Speaker 2 55:59
Yeah, it’s good to see you, Andrew. You as well, Jeff. Good to see a referral to Aaron’s lab turnout, so obviously successful.

Speaker 3 56:13
Well, thank you. It was a great amazing experience working with doctors Idelle working with Dr. John Stone, Jack going formal defeated me for a second doctors Zai dal and John Stone and other folks that I got just a huge rich. You know, just as a as an aside, you mentioned when I first reached out that I was like, How do I get a degree in this without getting laughed out of the interview process essentially. And I found when I was interviewing for grad school people were like rolling their eyes when the word biofeedback was brought up, but about two, three years into grad school, all these really really senior scientists at different departments in UCLA, right? Oh, you’re you’re the neurofeedback guy who will have a cool test suite you might want to use in your research. So I think there’s been a sea change of legitimacy as the tech space evolves. And I think that’s giving not just scientists and clinicians more agency to learn and do but individuals becomes much more approachable over time.

Speaker 2 57:08
To a large extent, I think that’s also been leveraged by international neuroscience. Not having the pejorative associated with neurofeedback. But basically using Neurofeedback as a as a manipulative. We brought in scientists from Salzburg University of Salzburg, blemishes lab, and that their exposure to the concept of neurofeedback, suddenly put Neurofeedback into their experiments. So, you get people doing PhD dissertation work with neurofeedback as the tool that they’re using. So the number of labs in Europe went from two being on basically being almost the only one God to suddenly having Salzburg and there’s a Spanish society, there’s an Italian society, there’s a society for Applied neuroscience for Europe. England has got its own little group as well, I mean that it’s flourished internationally and don’t even start to talk about it. And in in Asia, I mean, goodness gracious, the Koreans have done fabulous work, complete database dry headset, doing AI scrubbing of the data to predict mild cognitive impairment and dementia. They’ve got a whole bunch of other discriminant features being built at this point with AI. So, yeah, internationally, it’s just exploded. And it’s not like you have a pejorative against Neurofeedback internationally at all. There’s still a little hangover in the US that I still have to apologize for the early hippie reputation that was me, you know, so our whole field was dismissed as a bunch of hippies and that you know, the

Speaker 3 59:12
well you’ve redeemed yourself I think you’ve My apologies, you know, come a long way.

Speaker 1 59:17
So, yeah, oh, we need a few more podcasts out there. Get the word going. drip drip drip, Dr. Andrew Hill Jacob from and thank you for coming on to neuro noodle podcast. My

Unknown Speaker 59:28
pleasure guys. Take care of those brains.

Speaker 1 59:30
Oh yeah by the neuro needle podcast is supported by listeners and businesses just like you like our gold supporter, the seventh annual SUPER BRAIN summit at Bradley University and our silver supporter mind media. Join us at the seventh annual SUPER BRAIN summit and Bradley University Center for Collaborative brain research. It’s featuring speaker Dr. Mary Frances O’Connor. She’s the author of the grieving brain the surprising science of how We learned from our love and loss if you want to get more information regarding registration and tactical and Forter she’s at g h o w AR T r@bradley.edu or call her at 309677 3900 If you want more information regarding programming, you can contact Dr. Laurie Russell shaping herself at 309-677-3186 or email la ar@bradley.edu My media.com Get the latest EEG and Neurofeedback technology. From my media dad calm. There’s semi Dry Sensor cap is a wonder to see and their EEG amplifiers have been trusted in the field for decades. They’re Neurofeedback and cue EEG courses will get you up to speed in no time. Visit mine media.com Now


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